Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#231

Post by paconbork » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #150

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them. Maybe for some types of frontline workers, but certainly not for skilled tradesman, who are making bank right now and have for at least the past 20 years since I've lived in my current city. And in terms of "refuse to…

Ask yourself this though: why aren't people going to trade schools more often? If it's such a high demand career, with such reasonable pay, then surely it should attract talent; especially when one considers the extreme affordability of trade school in comparison to university education. But we don't see this, why? I posit that it is because people who work trades are looked down on socially. People point at the mech…

I don't think people generally point to tradesmen as someone you don't want to be, but rather the trades are never considered because a four year college degree is seen as an absolute prerequisite for class standing.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#232

Post by jl2718 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

otterley wrote: post #15

jl2718 wrote: post #8

Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations. Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learn…

> Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. Have you tried to hire a skilled plumber, landscaper, carpenter, or mason in a major city lately? There's a massive tradesperson shortage.

I hired a plumber who took a sledgehammer to my bathroom and the demanded 10x the money to fix it.

I’ve hired contractors that ripped out all the copper and left.

I lived in a house where the owner had hired a landscaper that got paid but didn’t show up for a year.

Nobody needs more than a month of training and a YouTube account to do these jobs. The problem is not skill; it’s trust. Low skill jobs unfortunately attract a lot of unsavory characters, and push out good people.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#233

Post by RussianCow » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #215

RussianCow wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 100k is literally double the average salary for the US, and 3 times the median wage. I'm not sure what source you're using, but no, it isn't even double the median US salary ($56k): https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm It's good money, don't get me wrong, but it's not immediately worth it if you spend $200k paying for law school. Edit: I misread the data above, but I'm finding similar numbers from other sour…

That’s “Annual mean wage” not median wage.

Oops, you're right, I completely misread. Thanks! In any case, I'm finding a lot of conflicting data, so at best I think the actual number depends on where you look.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#234

Post by ghaff » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #222

xphilter wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, this comment is wrong in so many places. “High five figures” is not a lot of money considering the opportunity cost (and actual cost of a law degree) (7 years and likely $200,000 all in). The 1 in 4 figure is not close to right either—it’s typically fewer than 1 in 10 get the actually high paying jobs outside of t-14 schools. And I’m glad commenter likes the grind, but most lawyers that I’ve worked with…

For perspective: https://www.federalpay.org/military/army Army Captain. Someone with a degree and a few years in the job. Someone in command of perhaps 50 people. A federal employee. The sort of person who most Americans would consider solidly middle class. Base monthly pay = $6,023

There is a contingent in tech (and probably other areas like Wall Street) that is absolutely delusional about what most people consider comfortable middle class--or even upper middle class--salaries.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#235

Post by hugocbp » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

I used to be a Lawyer and transitioned to IT, though my Law experience is not in the US.

I agree that there is a big misconception about lawyers and wages in most places. In Brazil, where I started, some lawyers really do make a lot of money but the vast majority of them earn barely above the minimum wage (doesn't help that Brazil has more Law Schools than most places due to bad higher education policies).

One of the reasons I left Law was because I burnt out. In my case, the main reason was mostly a mismatch of personalities. In Law, specially Corporate Law that I practiced, you just need to be ready and on point for a fight at any given time. Be it in a contract negotiation, a government inspection that is not totally according to terms or sometimes even fighting your own client that really wants you to say it is ok to do something that clearly is not and he is going to regret it. I just didn't have the personality to do that day in, day out.

I haven't experienced burning out in Tech yet, but I imagine it would be completely different. In my case, even in stressful times I enjoy that most of the day to day is just me, trying to solve problems by myself.

So, to address your question of "do I really want to go from being burnt out in IT to being burnt out in law?", I'd say:

If you have the type of personality that gets energized by being and interacting with people, even in a combative manner, "burning out in Law" is probably more adequate since you can can still take a break and come back.

If, on the other hand, too many people interaction and specially contentious interactions drains your energy, "burning out in Tech" with computers is probably better.

When I try to summarize my case, I usually say:

If as a kid you would enjoy more being in a debates club, you will like being a Laywer. If, on the other hand, a robotics club seems more enticing, then tech is more likely.

In the end, burning out is burning out, in any profession. The question is more: can you go back to being energized after taking a break? And that has more to do if you what you do aligns with who you are.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#236

Post by ghaff » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

mason55 wrote: post #176

dalbasal wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting thread. GP's point and your own are not necessarily at odds. A lot has to do with which real lawyer is used as representative. Are we looking at average experience, median, 76th percentile... Taking into account those who never started practicing, etc. The same can be said of other professions, but the details vary a lot. Relative merits depend on where we put the probe. A well to do lawyer, 40+ lawyer ca…

> Tech careers "naturally" progress into management, whereas lawyerly one progress into seniority The equivalent of tech progressing into management is lawyers progressing into sales. The people who make the most aren’t the ones who know the law the best, they’re the “rainmakers,” the ones bringing in all the business. At a certain point your career and monetary progression will be limited if you’re not moving to a r…

Probably most professions with firms that have a senior partner/partner/associate sort of structure. The more senior you are, the less your job is about doing "work" and the more it is about bringing new business and retaining existing clients. Of course, it's true in IT consulting as well. You can be sure that most of the senior people at Accenture aren't doing much coding.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#237

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

junipertea wrote: post #204

giantg2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a sedentary life at a keyboard could leave one in poor health. Every job has its tradeoffs. I would argue that a job with physical activity is better overall - I'd take joint replacement over heart surgery or diabetes.

You can always exercise with an office job. You can not just sit down in a factory/amazon warehouse/coal mine

"You can always exercise with an office job."

Not in a way that counter acts the effects. Plus, it doesn't address other health issues like eye strain.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/even-with-...

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#238

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #160

Kye wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The factory job will destroy your body before your 50s. What good is high five figures if you can't do anything with it other that pay for insurance that barely covers the physical therapy you'll need?

And a sedentary life at a keyboard could leave one in poor health. Every job has its tradeoffs. I would argue that a job with physical activity is better overall - I'd take joint replacement over heart surgery or diabetes.

Why so many downvotes?

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#239

Post by Retric » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #221

Retric wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lumping your comparison to include people without high school degrees with lawyers is making a huge mistake. At a minimum the comparison should be between collage graduates and lawyers minus the opportunity cost of law school. Consider, when comparing starting salary your accountant or whatever not only makes money in both years a lawyer is in law school they also likely have two raises before the lawyer gets his fir…

not everyone who's a lawyer can be an accountant and vice versa.

Sure, but the job was irrelevant substitute librarian or anything other than unemployed and the opportunity cost still exists. IMO, the comparison is still quite generous as it ignores risks associated with trying to become a lawyer.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#240

Post by draebek » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #78

pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

Does your inclination to recommend the legal field and law school stand if the person would have to finance the entire law degree, and couldn't get in to a T14 school? I assume $120k all-in, having been a party to shopping for law schools—albeit several years ago, so I hope it hasn't gone up much.