Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#161

Post by rayiner » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #87

rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

Did you get back to law school and pass the bar after pivoting from a CS career (and a CS diploma) ?

Yes, though my degree was aerospace not CS.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#162

Post by wintermutestwin » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

>For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help the rich get richer

When it comes down to it, doesn't that describe the majority of well paying jobs? (I say that as someone who bailed on my well paying tech career to work in the non-profit space for that very reason)

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#163

Post by rayiner » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #159

rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

"It’s a demanding, detail oriented, analytical job, and many of those people become quite disillusioned with it." I would love the detailed and analytical aspect of it. Sadly, I hate the contradictions, mistakes, etc that I have experienced with the system. With the vast number of laws and opinions, it seems it's just as much about making the judge like you because they can pick and choose what laws apply (just look…

> With the vast number of laws and opinions, it seems it's just as much about making the judge like you because they can pick and choose what laws apply (just look at stuff like split opinions).

I tend to view this as analyzing the same problem under different rule sets. Like, making an argument to a “living constitution” judge can be different than making none to an origins list judge, but there’s an internal logic to each argument. It’s just different axioms and rules.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#164

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #156

chrisseaton wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporate graphic design Not sure that counts as a profession.

If graphic design doesn't count as a profession, what does?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession

Law, medicine, etc.

There's no professional body for corporate design is there?

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#165

Post by staticman2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #5

toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the thread link: > Experts attribute the crush of applications to a number of factors, particularly the slowdown in the entry-level job market caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. Law school and other graduate programs historically become more popular when jobs are tougher to come by in slow economies. Law school applicants shot up nearly 18% in 2002, amid the bursting of the so-called dot-com bubble. The number of…

Has anyone ever done a study on the costs/benefits of funding public defenders? Better funded public defenders, I imagine, would result in fewer and shorter prison sentences (saving money), but I guess also have some potential for an increase in crime (costing money).

In theory a cheaper reform is not hiring prosecutors who pursue cases with weak evidence, or who don't throw kids in jail for crazy things like taking pictures of each other, or who ask for lower sentences.

The prosecutor has a much bigger influence on outcomes than a public defender.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#166

Post by the_only_law » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #89

JCM9 wrote: post #46

When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case. Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting th…

Money isn't everything, there's a status component related to those professions (especially if you are coming from poorer background) and a lot of people like the idea of being a doctor or a lawyer. TBH you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy sitting in front of a screen 8H a day to work on stuff most people would find meaningless (eg. getting paid to optimize ad revenue, speed up PHP execution to save data…

Occasionally the status thing will come up regarding jobs and I find it interesting. I suppose HN tends to view software developers as high-status, probably because of its roots in the bay sate startup scene, where to imagine, yeah.

But when I tell people what I do. A large number still don’t know what the fuck it actually is, outside “something with computers”.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#167

Post by cherselle » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

That's a considerable increase since the dot-com bubble. Being in law gives you a considerable salary compared to other jobs. Also, it attracts many people because of its salary, but that's not always the case; the ones that receive high salaries are the people in the top part of the pyramid. It might take a decade but if you're willing to make the grind then, go for it.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#168

Post by staticman2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #12

haggy102 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a potential law student how would you frame your argument against lockdowns in a world where trust in subject matter experts is down across the board (on both side, pro and against lockdowns)?

There’s quite a few people I know as well who are considering going to school as well. The gist has been the same, the constitution doesn’t appear to be being followed and as a lawyer you have the ability to defend your rights. I’m not sure what caused this particular spike (a lot of alone time?) but I know a lot of people are feeling this way. In terms of an argument: 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, 14th are amendments are clea…

Anyone can hire a lawyer for money. A lawyer will happily argue whatever quirky take on the constitution you have, and happily bill you per hour as they lose in court.

I think a gofundme funded by likeminded people to support your doomed lawsuits would be a lot more cost efficient than going to law school.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#169

Post by flavius29663 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

xphilter wrote: post #111

rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

With respect, this comment is wrong in so many places. “High five figures” is not a lot of money considering the opportunity cost (and actual cost of a law degree) (7 years and likely $200,000 all in). The 1 in 4 figure is not close to right either—it’s typically fewer than 1 in 10 get the actually high paying jobs outside of t-14 schools. And I’m glad commenter likes the grind, but most lawyers that I’ve worked with…

I don't see how high 5 figures is not high salary. 100k is literally double the average salary for the US, and 3 times the median wage. And a lot of people earning the median are also deep in student debt. If earning 3 times the median is not good money, maybe your view of what "good money" means something else.

The lawyer median wage is 125k, and the 75 percentile is 186k. I consider 186k to be a high wage, it's 6 times the national mean wage. And according to the sources below, 1 in 4 lawyers are above that.

Median wages https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm

Lawyer wages https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary

I am sorry, but I just don't see how the commenter above is wrong, the numbers say he is spot on. But anyway, I am not a lawyer, and I am not trying to be disrespectful, but I see a lot of high earners in many fields that complain having small wages and tough life, but when you compare it from the outside, it doesn't look so bad. For example, the guy in your article:

  said Dylan Boigris, a 2016 Miami Law graduate, who began his career making about $45,000 as a public defender

Making 50% more than the median right out of college, I would say that is pretty good, don't you think? And he is a low percentile, because in your article:

  Graduates who finished law school in 2019 earned a median $72,500 the following year,

Then your article goes to show earning vs debt on a graph. I think it's quite an expectation to have your annual earning cover the cost of the entire law degree...and then bemoan when it doesn't. How many other professions have this luxury?

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#170

Post by tech_tuna » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

JCM9 wrote: post #46

When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case. Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting th…

The key bit here is that good business sense is oftentimes more important than your degree or even profession. A successful plumber, carpenter, electrician, etc who builds a large enough business can make millions of dollars per year.

It is hard to do that, but it is possible.