Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#41

Post by lholoubek » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:41 AM UTC

dolebirchwood wrote: post #33

pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

I used to work as an attorney, quit to join a coding boot camp, transitioned to web development, and now I'm employed as a software engineer. When I was a lawyer, I bounced around a few different jobs--mostly in litigation. I started off as a public defender before moving on to private criminal defense, then doing some work as a legislative researcher, and finally ending my career in plaintiffs' civil rights litigati…

This resonates with me. I also changed careers from law to tech. I went to law school because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do and got a full scholarship at a state school, so it was really the easy path. Looking back, I'd say at least 50% of my law school class went to law school because of similar career uncertainty. I imagine many of them are in the stereotypical: trapped in a middling legal career with a pile of debt following them around. There were a tiny minority who were truly passionate about law.

Fortunately, I found time during law school to get into software and robotics and transitioned into a tech career within about 18 months after graduation. My short legal career as a corporate M&A attorney was more than enough to convince me to take a risk and try something new. I never did any litigation work, but corporate legal work involves plenty of going through the motions - often late at night or on weekends to meeting some arbitrary timing imposed by a client. I was extremely fortunate to have a supportive partner, no kids, etc., so making a somewhat radical career move didn't involve all that much risk.

I have a few other friends who also moved from law to software and have done quite well. It could be selection bias, but I do think some of the discipline and diligence required to do well in law school translated nicely into coding and related technical disciplines.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#42

Post by bawolff » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #23

Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt: 1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too). 2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs sc…

Is tech really automating away legal work? Maybe secertarial work related to lawyers, but i doubt its automating away actual legal work.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#43

Post by readonthegoapp » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

Amazing how these two articles were timed to land right on top of each other....it's almost like it was intentional.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"Law School Loses Luster as Debts Mount and Salaries Stagnate"

The Wall Street Journal

https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...

https://archive.is/3hGsA

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#44

Post by bawolff » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #5

toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the thread link: > Experts attribute the crush of applications to a number of factors, particularly the slowdown in the entry-level job market caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. Law school and other graduate programs historically become more popular when jobs are tougher to come by in slow economies. Law school applicants shot up nearly 18% in 2002, amid the bursting of the so-called dot-com bubble. The number of…

Has anyone ever done a study on the costs/benefits of funding public defenders? Better funded public defenders, I imagine, would result in fewer and shorter prison sentences (saving money), but I guess also have some potential for an increase in crime (costing money).

> but I guess also have some potential for an increase in crime

What? Why?

Public defender might help the innocent stay free. But if you actually did the crime and were caught you're probably still going to jail barring some impropriety being involved.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#45

Post by ayngg » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 4:58 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Although average wages are around 75k, wages of lawyers are two tiered, the majority settle around ~55k and then prominent lawyers who went to good schools and were groomed to become partners make over triple that [1]. So it is a lot like other professional white collar professions like accounting where there are huge amounts of extremely overworked people in entry level jobs who were suckered into the perceived security of the profession and few that make partner and rake in decent cash, which is only like average FANG entry salaries, the only difference is that they have to go through a professional degree and often incur huge amounts of debt just to get there.

[1] https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-c...

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#46

Post by JCM9 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case.

Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting the “best and brightest” out of graduating classes. Your typical established doctor these days makes what would be considered an early career salary at FAANG—and that’s before considering the crazy amounts of debt that many law and medical students take on. Many lawyers (outside top firms) make very little considering the amount of training required.

A savvy tradesman these days (e.g. Plumber) can easily make more than most lawyers and even many physicians. I’ve cited that a lot when giving career advice to those being pressured into a college degree when it’s probably not the right fit for them.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#47

Post by mrobot » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #5

toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the thread link: > Experts attribute the crush of applications to a number of factors, particularly the slowdown in the entry-level job market caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. Law school and other graduate programs historically become more popular when jobs are tougher to come by in slow economies. Law school applicants shot up nearly 18% in 2002, amid the bursting of the so-called dot-com bubble. The number of…

Has anyone ever done a study on the costs/benefits of funding public defenders? Better funded public defenders, I imagine, would result in fewer and shorter prison sentences (saving money), but I guess also have some potential for an increase in crime (costing money).

I don't think anyone with actual power over the issues wants shorter prison sentences. The public loses money on prisons, but there is an industry of basically sucking profits off all the different things that prisoners do throughout the day, and in also taking a cut for other things like how they broker relationships like which healthcare providers get paid, etc. They take orders-of-magnitude too high profits on moving money, making phone calls, video calls, ordering books and stuff, mailing packages, buying some ramen noodles, privileging someone with an ankle bracelet, or charging rent at a halfway house (they own those too), or just the slave or near-slave labor wages for doing a job, etc. And the states get stuff like free firefighters, as we all know. A privileged minority is gaining all the real estate for the new prisons, offices, halfway houses, too. They want to keep doing what they are doing. And it's not just the private prison industry or anything it's just the whole thing is this bloodsucking.

It is corrupt extraction of human ability and based on suffering, it is just not tracked closely. People do time for the worst things. Using drugs is not a real crime worthy of punishment, for example, but people just sit and sit and work and work for really dumb stuff like that. Justice system seems clearly not some rehabilitative thing where people involved are helping in good faith. That is maybe what they imply on tv crime shows or something.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#48

Post by otterley » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #42

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #23

Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt: 1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too). 2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs sc…

Is tech really automating away legal work? Maybe secertarial work related to lawyers, but i doubt its automating away actual legal work.

It’s automating the document review part, to be sure. Basically massive parallel grep against gigabytes or terabytes of preserved electronic documents. Paper document sleuthing (“doc review”) used to be the most common (and most reviled) work of first year associates. The first pass is now automated and so they’re doing much more valuable second-pass work now.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#49

Post by gigatexal » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

I see the increase in people wanting to become lawyers as a negative signal about society. It suggests to me that the law is becoming too complex, that people litigate too much, and this complexity and propensity to litigate becomes a cost.

It’s not an entirely thought out hunch on my end but I think it ties in with how complex the tax code is. To me the tax code is needlessly complex. Sure it’ll likely never fit on a single page but does it need to require tombs and be so complex that smart individuals spend time and brain cells finding ways around it to save corporations and the wealthy money instead of working on science or something else that would benefit society?

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#50

Post by Gatsky » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #32

arn wrote: post #9

Apparently med school applications were up 18% (in 2020). Which surprises me, I would think COVID might have scared more people off. https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medica...

I would think COVID might have scared more people off Or talking to doctors, or listening to what doctors write and say: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-n...

Great article. Unfortunately medicine continues to attract endless applicants. Universities have worked out that people will eat broken glass and pay for the privelege if they think it will raise their status.