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Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

reuters.com

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Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#111

Post by xphilter »

rayiner wrote: post #78
pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

With respect, this comment is wrong in so many places. “High five figures” is not a lot of money considering the opportunity cost (and actual cost of a law degree) (7 years and likely $200,000 all in). The 1 in 4 figure is not close to right either—it’s typically fewer than 1 in 10 get the actually high paying jobs outside of t-14 schools. And I’m glad commenter likes the grind, but most lawyers that I’ve worked with over the years are miserable and drink too much, regardless of school and rank. Sounds like a serious case of survivor bias. This article is closer to reality: https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#112

Post by cpwright »

JCM9 wrote: post #46

When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case. Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting th…

The plumber who is making more than a doctor is likely also a business owner. There are two skills needed there, the actual plumbing and also running a business. To be particularly successful, you need to be good at both.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#113

Post by dalbasal »

rayiner wrote: post #78
pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

Interesting thread.

GP's point and your own are not necessarily at odds. A lot has to do with which real lawyer is used as representative. Are we looking at average experience, median, 76th percentile... Taking into account those who never started practicing, etc.

The same can be said of other professions, but the details vary a lot. Relative merits depend on where we put the probe.

A well to do lawyer, 40+ lawyer can be in a more comfortable career place than a comparison programmer going forward. Tech careers "naturally" progress into management, whereas lawyerly one progress into seniority. Competitive, yet prestige based career starts. A nice seniority ratchet as a winners reward.

OTOH, scrapy starts seem like a tough place for lawyers. In tech, skills, hustle and attitude can get you a start... when times are good. Tech is a good business to be in, but volatile... even when times are good. I wouldn't say only chops matter, but you can get by on mostly chops.

Play the game you stand to win, I suppose. If you are en route to line up prestigious degrees, internships and such... 1 in 4 doesn't necessarily mean 1 in 4 for you. There's a harsh distribution.

I suspect this explains attrition. More prestige oriented success factors and a harsher distribution. Beyond a certain threshold winners win a more prestige oriented prize. The 44 year old senior programmer probably has a less cushy path forward. Seniority isn't even a value, it's only valued for implied experience.

If you have good odds at a prestigious internship or starting job, it makes a lot of sense to pursue law. If you aren't, it often won't. I reckon that reality sinks in during law school. Programming doesn't really have that. False starts, scrappy starts, and such are fine. Average results for working programmers are fine. An uncle who can advise and groom you before eventually recommending you for a great internship is great, but it's not the stuff most tech careers are made of.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#114

Post by ubercore »

ayngg wrote: post #45
pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Although average wages are around 75k, wages of lawyers are two tiered, the majority settle around ~55k and then prominent lawyers who went to good schools and were groomed to become partners make over triple that [1]. So it is a lot like other professional white collar professions like accounting where there are huge amounts of extremely overworked people in entry level jobs who were suckered into the perceived secu…

Aren't programmer salaries equally bimodal?

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#115

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

qeternity wrote: post #99
otterley wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. Have you tried to hire a skilled plumber, landscaper, carpenter, or mason in a major city lately? There's a massive tradesperson shortage.

You can thank the unlimited backstop of federal student loans for people to study at any subpar school in any number of useless degrees. This has siphoned off the historical supply of labor in trade schools.

You can also blame society for undervaluing tradesmen. If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#116

Post by gverrilla »

I was in law school for 2 semesters. I got a job at a top m&a and societary office, in one of the highest profile avenues in the tropical capital I lived in, as an intern. It was summer, lunchtime, and I was walking on said avenue when my boss crossed me. He stopped and all of a sudden reached for my tie knot, to check if the button behind it was correctly buttoned (is this the right word?). He proceeded to tell me I was an employee of his high-tier office even during lunchtime and I should always keep appearances. Luckily I'm deeply anti-violence, because my first instinct when he touched my tie was to smash his face. I didn't return to the office, and soon after that I quit law school. By that time my tactics to circumvent the office proxy and access forbidden websites had gone viral :P.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#117

Post by deelowe »

rayiner wrote: post #78
pmoriarty wrote: post #7

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A…

You can get “high five figures” with a GED and a factory job. Why would anyone go through the stress and expense of law school for that?

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#118

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

reader_mode wrote: post #89
JCM9 wrote: post #46

When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case. Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting th…

Money isn't everything, there's a status component related to those professions (especially if you are coming from poorer background) and a lot of people like the idea of being a doctor or a lawyer. TBH you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy sitting in front of a screen 8H a day to work on stuff most people would find meaningless (eg. getting paid to optimize ad revenue, speed up PHP execution to save data…

In my job, I get exposed to the owners of plumbing, construction, and other blue collar industries. From what I've seen, their houses are huge, their spouses are gorgeous, and they live in regions where they get to have an incredible quality of life.

The owner of a construction company told me once that he makes a 15% profit per year, and he charges far less than the competition because he would feel slimy taking more.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#119

Post by bart_spoon »

ethbr0 wrote: post #81
cudgy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or most software developers.

Software developers make the world a better place. Unfortunately, most of they ways in which they do so were already done in the 70s. It's just repeating that work in more modern languages / stacks.

Some software developers make the world a better place. Many produce software that ultimately not that useful, and in the worst case scenario, actively harmful to society. Is the world a better place because of Apple, Amazon, or Google? Eh, you can make an argument either way. Is it a better place because of Facebook or Twitter? Unambiguously no.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#120

Post by yreg »

Mumps wrote: post #96
bawolff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is tech really automating away legal work? Maybe secertarial work related to lawyers, but i doubt its automating away actual legal work.

I work in legal tech (AI). No, it's not automating away work, much more work is being done to increase ability to do _interesting_ and otherwise challenging work (say, more efficient research loops, so a lawyer can uncover more legal connections between documents).

Our spinoff company (https://tramatm.com/) automates a lot of work around trademark registration/protection and the research that comes with that.[0]

They are new in the game but doing pretty well.

[0] https://vacuumlabs.com/blog/lifevacuum/how-to-build-a-google...

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