My small revenge on Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#61

Post by gregoriol » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #24

gregoriol wrote: post #7

While the grudge against Apple is real and has been discussed time and time again, the revenge described here is a joke: no-one will seriously use a web version when an app is available, the experience is really not as good, the findability is not there and for many apps device-features will be missing.

I used to agree with this. That was before I developed the web version and was able to compare real performance. Web (WASM) beats both Android and iOS native apps. Only downside is initial data transfer (1.2MB). A bit funny since the iOS app is 20MB and the Android one is 5MB

Do you have some source or docs on what you did? You probably didn't need any device feature like the camera?

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#62

Post by kraf » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

spinningarrow wrote: post #2

Seems a bit petty to me. As a developer I empathize with the possible lack of documentation (I don’t know, I never tried to integrate Sign In with Apple) but as a user I actually am super happy with it. Nowadays any iOS app that doesn’t support logging in with Apple makes me think twice about whether I really need the app.

Protest is an important form of participation in a democracy, it's not petty at all. Forcing developers to add Apple ID as a sign-in method is the petty thing. The developers have no power unless they unionize in some form which seems absolutely impossible. So it seems to me that it's all a developer can really do to make a statement and I think it's brave.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#63

Post by danpalmer » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

Similar to how in-app purchase/subscription fees of 30% just _does not work_ for certain kinds of business with certain kinds of margin, Sign in with Apple has limitations far beyond other social sign-in systems that mean it is a complete non-starter for certain businesses.

Like us. We have Facebook sign in (appropriate for our market), but couldn't integrate Sign in with Apple because the email private relay limits how you can send email to it so much, and we use the email address as a fraud signal for some payment providers.

It comes down to the fact that we share email addresses and Apple have stopped that from working. They see it as stopping advertising and spam, but in our case they're preventing certain payment options, delivery notifications, refund notifications, all the sorts of emails that users tell us again and again are very important to them. We're not sharing emails without consent, we're doing it where users know what's being shared and why, and want these features.

Edit: I wrote up a bunch of these issues at the time it was launched: https://danpalmer.me/2019-07-02-on-signing-in-with-apple/

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#64

Post by ascar » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

wokwokwok wrote: post #50

pjerem wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you want my email address Because Apple's SSO will not be eternal and nobody wants to have a tier as a proxy on an important account credential. Apple SSO is ok for throwaway account where your account has no "sentimental value" that you can't recreate easily. But the author of this post maintains a social network : nobody wants to be locked out a social network. I have active accounts on websites that exist…

You’ve got to be kidding. Don’t use apple SSO because apple might not exist one day? You may as well argue not signup to anything using gmail because, heck, google might go out of business. There is no benefit to users in giving your “real” details to service providers; the benefit is entirely on their side. You can argue that Apple is harming the opportunities for 3rd party developers, sure, taking advantage of them…

I don't think your tone is warranted and in the spirit of this community.

I don't agree with GP's fear of Apple SSO vanishing without a transition period to something else, but the general premise that this form of login is not eternal but rather short lived in the grand scheme of things is reasonable and doesn't warrant your aggressiveness.

Also you might get locked out of your Apple account for a number of reasons and will then lose access to much more than just Apple services.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#65

Post by collaborative » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

egghese wrote: post #17

The author's revenge seems to be against his users who opted to used Sign In with Apple. Since they will be the one suffering because they trusted to use the particular app. I can find merit in complaining about apple's restriction in accessing payments. But SignIn with Apple, as a user I will always opt for that given my email won't be available with a third party forever for them to spam or sell. I have integrated…

Apple forced Groups to choose between having AppleID, or losing Sign in with Google/FB. That would have been equally bad for existing users who had chosen Google/FB before Apple ID was even a thing. Perhaps Groups would have happily adopted Apple ID if it hadn't been forced on it

At the end of the day Groups is a passion project. So it can be used to contribute to a world where developers aren't taken for granted

Apple ID was buggy as hell when it first came out.

Apple users will have to understand that Apple's policies can have an impact in what they get from developers. Apple only cares about $ and PR, wish it weren't this way

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#66

Post by martimarkov » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

pjerem wrote: post #42

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nowadays any iOS app that doesn’t support logging in with Apple makes me think twice about whether I really need the app. I agree. I only create accounts for things reluctantly. Because 1. Why do you want my email address, or DOB, or whatever else? I don't want your marketing, and 2. I can't be bothered, I downloaded your app because I have something I want to get done.

> Why do you want my email address Because Apple's SSO will not be eternal and nobody wants to have a tier as a proxy on an important account credential. Apple SSO is ok for throwaway account where your account has no "sentimental value" that you can't recreate easily. But the author of this post maintains a social network : nobody wants to be locked out a social network. I have active accounts on websites that exist…

Sign In with Apple allows you to share your email so you are incorrect. If I decide to hide my email and be locked out - my choice. Developers and companies are greedy for data. Why do we have the expectation that emails should be shared? I constantly say don’t send me marketing and some services send. On my part I report them as spam every time so that algos start blocking them as they are breaking our contract and are malicious.

For every service I’ve built allow the user to create an account with email, Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook and to later untie their account and move to email. Also if they ever get locked out from their oauth account they can use the email to create a password and login via the normal way.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#67

Post by draw_down » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

It’s funny this guy thinks Apple users don’t want this functionality. A lot of us absolutely do.

I don’t care about your app and I don’t care about maintaining yet another stupid account. And I don’t want your emails. Sorry.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#68

Post by chemmail » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

This is also something what happens to Apple Music. My friend recently got family and he had extra logins so I join his group with my iphone but my wife has android. Lo and behold they actually have an Apple music app on android. Try as I may i cannot get her logged into it. What i had to do is use another iPhone, sign in and accept the Apple music sub on the iPhone before it would work on the Android. Luckily I still have a collection of iPhones or no Apple music for android ppl.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#69

Post by dandellion » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

Toutouxc wrote: post #57

rovek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second quote conveniently chops out the main point of the article, which is that Apple abuse their dominance to force developers into having no choice.

Because dev experience isn't what my post was about. I don't agree with some of the ways Apple treats developers, but I mostly agree with how they treat users and I genuinely like (MacBook) or at least understand and respect (iPhone) their products.

What happens when Apple stops being on fire, and you are trapped in their ecosystem and can't get out? I won't argue that Apple makes the nicest and most comfortable golden cuffs, but in the end they're still chains.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#70

Post by oriolid » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

wokwokwok wrote: post #50

pjerem wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you want my email address Because Apple's SSO will not be eternal and nobody wants to have a tier as a proxy on an important account credential. Apple SSO is ok for throwaway account where your account has no "sentimental value" that you can't recreate easily. But the author of this post maintains a social network : nobody wants to be locked out a social network. I have active accounts on websites that exist…

You’ve got to be kidding. Don’t use apple SSO because apple might not exist one day? You may as well argue not signup to anything using gmail because, heck, google might go out of business. There is no benefit to users in giving your “real” details to service providers; the benefit is entirely on their side. You can argue that Apple is harming the opportunities for 3rd party developers, sure, taking advantage of them…

> Don’t use apple SSO because apple might not exist one day?

There might be a day when Apple is not _my_ cell phone platform. Even now I have an Android phone and iPad and I prefer to have access to same services from both.