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Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

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Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#31

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

My father was a lawyer and genuinely enjoyed his career. He did fit into that “elite lawyer” category. In retirement now, he has been approached several times to return (for obscene money) and its always a firm no from him. He doesn’t want the headache. He loved the networking and people-relationships of lawyering but the actual work was tedious and exhausting even with an army of supporting staff and associates around him.

I have a sibling that is a lawyer and they want nothing to do with being a firm slave on the partner-track grind. They are happy just being internal corporate 9-5 counsel in there little area of specialization. I know many of there friends from law school tho are not in great positions several years after graduation…

I have a bunch of other friends that went to law school with various levels of success. It does seem to mint a respectable amount of middle-class jobs but none of them are getting rich doing it.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#32
post #9

Apparently med school applications were up 18% (in 2020). Which surprises me, I would think COVID might have scared more people off. https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medica...

I would think COVID might have scared more people off

Or talking to doctors, or listening to what doctors write and say: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-n...

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#33

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

I used to work as an attorney, quit to join a coding boot camp, transitioned to web development, and now I'm employed as a software engineer.

When I was a lawyer, I bounced around a few different jobs--mostly in litigation. I started off as a public defender before moving on to private criminal defense, then doing some work as a legislative researcher, and finally ending my career in plaintiffs' civil rights litigation. That might all sound fun and exciting, but, frankly, the work is just plain boring. You interview your client, listen to their story, read some reports, filter out relevant evidence, do some legal research to support your arguments, read and write some briefs, cut a deal with opposing counsel, sit around waiting in court, suck up to some power-tripping judge, get a thankless goodbye from your client, rinse, wipe, repeat. Throw in a jury trial here and there and now you're having some fun, but get ready to basically be a used car salesman, because you've got to sell your client's story whether you believe it or not. Depending on the facts of your case (as known to you) and the strength of your conscience, that can be a tough and soul-sucking task. And if you stick with government work, you probably won't be making six figures until you're very high up the totem pole (10+ years into your career).

After about 6-7 years of it, I realized that I could separate most of the older lawyers into two groups: true believers and functional burnouts. The true believers are really gung-ho about what they do because they really do think their job is the most important job in the world, and they really shine. Those are the lawyers you want to hire. But the majority of them are just going through the motions and are too afraid to try something else because they've invested so much time and effort into their careers, they've got kids and a mortgage, they've got golden handcuffs, and "being a lawyer" is simply what defines their identity. I might have started off as a true believer, but over time, I started seeing a lot more gray in the work I did--to the point where it was a daily struggle to deal with the cognitive dissonance. You're on the fast-track to burnout at that point, so I figured it was a good time to bounce. I had always been a lot more technically adept than most lawyers (some can be borderline luddites, probably because technology represents a threat to their billable hours), so the transition to tech was a smooth and enjoyable one. I don't regret the decision.

Could I get burned out in tech, too? Sure, but it suits my overall disposition better, so I think there's a little more room to push myself before that happens. I'd rather fight with computers than people, so I feel pretty safe (until I wind up in management). Really just depends on what your personal values are. I wouldn't necessarily discourage someone from becoming a lawyer, but you might want to make sure you have a damn good reason for wanting it. If you're a committed ideologue, there's opportunity there in litigation. If you just want to be a glorified service industry professional having people fill out the right forms, there's opportunity in transactional work. But... eh, you're going to be doing a lot of babysitting either way, and it's not a particularly "creative" line of work. Whatever you do, don't take on an insane amount of debt. I went to a state school and got a lot of grant money, so I basically went to law school for the same cost as a brand new Camaro. If I took on a 6-figure debt load, I'd be up shit creek today.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#34
post #8

Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations. Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learn…

Where I live plumbers make more than an average software engineer. Owner operator plumbers make close to half a million a year. And don’t get me started on Plumbers operating a min of 5 trucks they make atleast a million and half. I know this because my brother law is a plumber.

I'm in California and I had a water leak on the property that cost me $500 on my water bill. My water provider offered a credit for the overage if I can prove that I fixed it. A local plumber charged me $400, provided me with the exact paperwork to send in, and I got a $500 credit.

What a wild economy. I have no complaints, I understand why it works that way. And all my plumber had to do was smile, provide a bit of customer service, and repair one pipe.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#35

Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt: 1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too). 2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs sc…

1: I'm not sure how much larger class sizes will be, since law schools are somewhat constrained in the short term because of room sizes (especially during COVID) and faculty availability. Schools are undoubtedly hurting for revenues due to losses last year, but I think on average there will be less than 10% more students admitted at selective schools. Lower-tier schools may bring on adjuncts to teach more courses, but I wouldn't recommend going to those schools (especially if they're having core courses taught by non-faculty).

2/3: Yes, many regret going to law school. It is 50% more expensive than an MBA since it's an extra year (though summer internships pay very good money, which defrays this somewhat). My recommendation to law school prospects is to only go if:

(1) you get into a top-3 school

(2) you get a half-ride at a top 20 school, or

(3) you are absolutely dead set on being a lawyer and get into a top-30 school

disclosure: I went to a T14 school on a scholarship, worked in biglaw for 7 years, and now run a startup. I don't regret going to law school. (T14 is the designation for the top 14 law schools, which are relatively fixed in the USNews rankings.)

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#36

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

If you can get into a top school (all of the top-3 for sure, and probably some other top-10 as well), they have loan forgiveness programs for graduates who work in public interest law. Caveat: if you're married to a spouse who earns decent money, you might find yourself disqualified on the basis of his/her income.

This doesn't solve the problem about being overworked, but at least it makes being a PD more financially viable.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#37
post #9

Apparently med school applications were up 18% (in 2020). Which surprises me, I would think COVID might have scared more people off. https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medica...

just wait until they realize being a doctor at a hospital is more bureaucratic than actually practicing medicine.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#39

Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt: 1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too). 2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs sc…

Fwiw I don't think that going to a non-top MBA is generally worth it either... It's very expensive and employer sponsorship isn't that common.

But I'm not surprised to learn that most MBAs don't regret going since it's basically 2 years of partying with an internship in between (during which you mainly party). My partner's 2 years in bschool were 2 of the best years of my life.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#40
Are CS applications surging too? What about other fields? It seems like more people are applying to college in general.

Both my current and previous university, year after year keep having record numbers of applicants. And IIRC the CS program is getting more and more competitive.

I'm not sure about liberal-arts though.

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