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Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

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Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#211
post #65

Musk said he was going to automate the factory and he is going to automate the factory, no matter what. Musk is a visionary, he lives in the future. For him the future is as real as the present, and has a clear pathway for it. He is going to make mistakes and some pathways are impossible to transit, but the goal remains the same and he will find a new way to go there. No matter if it takes five years and it is not po…

Look at SpaceX/Starbase. The dude is crazy. He accelerated development over a week or two and the time series of photos of the site show epic progress. They installed 29 (!) Raptor engines in a single night with incredibly complex plumbing. They had 23 people working inside the diameter of the rocket. Granted, he is rushing the SuperHeavy orbital build with reckless abandon, and a bad weld or connection somewhere mea…

Left out of your comment is the true hero of SpaceX: Gwynne Shotwell, who saved SpaceX from Musk's excesses and turned it into the highly profitable company it is today with a string of successful launches.

Shotwell is the reason that SpaceX was able to install 29 Raptor engines in a single night to satisfy Musk's whims.

Every launch failure that SpaceX has had in the past few years? That's Musk, gallivanting in at the last minute and interrupting the processes Shotwell set up to ensure successful launches to satisfy some silly little last-minute whim.

All of Musk's "successes" at SpaceX are literally just him waltzing in and stealing the credit for the work she's actually doing.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#212
post #77

I don't know why anyone would take that book seriously. The author made up the story about Musk demanding to be CEO of Apple, then doubled down when both Musk and Cook denied it. An astonishing example of journalistic malpractice. In any other time this would be career-ending https://twitter.com/timkhiggins/status/1421156081041088512?s...

The author did not make up the story; he is simply relaying a story that multiple current and former Tesla employees said they were told...by Musk himself.

As actually relayed in the book, the point of the story is not that Musk actually wanted to become CEO of Apple-Tesla (the author notes that the story is implausible), but that Musk felt the need to burnish his image by making up such a story in the first place.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not very representative of society Tesla is worth 600 billion dollars. Means the world is very impatient to buy their cars actually. Also, you don't get to decide how people behave and treat each other. The social equilibrium is such that you only get to decide on your behaviors.

Yeah I guess decent people are dummies for not wanting to live in the world made in the wake of geniuses like you and Harvey Weinstein.

I wouldn't use the word "decent" for someone who pokes their nose at your use of the F-word and voice intonation. I would rather use "control freaks".

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#214
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of their assets are tied up in stocks that they're not gonna sell soon. How is that at all relevant? Name one thing any of them cannot buy just because the vast majority of their wealth is invested. Bezos was putting a billion a quarter into Blue Origin - yes that's a small percentage of his wealth but there's no reason to assume more money would have gone faster.

Presidential elections.

That's not true. Bloomberg bought the NYC mayor election and into the top 4 of the Democratic presidential primary. Considering he (a) only became a Democrat in 2018 and had held office as an independent (after running for office as a Republican) (b) waffled on whether he was even going to run for the first 8 months of the election and (c) skipped the first four states that's a really good result. He still bought himself into the debates.

And that's buying it for yourself. I think we can easily see the history of rich people buying presidents if not the presidency.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#215
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the results do speak for themselves: an unprofitable company with a petulant, childish troll as a CEO. Just because you act like Steve Jobs doesn't mean that you are Steve Jobs. You can ask Adam Neumann about that.

FWIW, Tesla isn't unprofitable anymore (even if you remove the EV credits)

If you look at earnings since inception, they're still down roughly -$5 billion.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#216
post #151
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you remove their bitcoin and doge earnings.

You are spreading misinformation. Their Q2 earnings were out recently. They made over 1b in GAAP profits in Q2 while recording a book loss of about 32m on their Bitcoin holdings. They don’t record any Dogecoin on their books. At least report facts. https://ir.tesla.com/_flysystem/s3/sec/000095017021000524/ts... Their Q1 earnings recorded only about 100m in profits from Bitcoin. Do some math. Hate on him all you like…

If you look at earnings since inception, they're still down roughly -$5 billion.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I think about every now and then. The problem is that the Jobs/Gates/Musks are the shining exceptions. Survivorship bias basically. For every one of them, there's probably 100 other people in leadership positions that have similarly nasty temperaments, but nowhere near as successful as they are.

I'm halfway through Bad Blood (after having already read Musk's and Jobs's iconic biographies) and have been thinking about such comparisons. Were there specific differences that made Musk and Jobs successful compared to Holmes in spite of their flaws, or is it just random dice outcomes that explain why the former managed to turn the impossible into possible and the latter didn't?

[deleted]

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#218
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are spreading misinformation. Their Q2 earnings were out recently. They made over 1b in GAAP profits in Q2 while recording a book loss of about 32m on their Bitcoin holdings. They don’t record any Dogecoin on their books. At least report facts. https://ir.tesla.com/_flysystem/s3/sec/000095017021000524/ts... Their Q1 earnings recorded only about 100m in profits from Bitcoin. Do some math. Hate on him all you like…

If you look at earnings since inception, they're still down roughly -$5 billion.

The same argument applies to every single company. The question is when and if they turn profitable. That is a legitimate question to ask. However, answering the question at a single non terminal point in time doesn’t make much sense.

You can look at that, look at their prospects, and then make your own valuation. Take the 5B in losses historically, take their growth rate, take their expected margins, take their competition, and make your decision.

- 5B loss over company history - 1B profit the last quarter - 50% growth historically - increasing margins - sold out car and energy products - potential increased competition

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I think about every now and then. The problem is that the Jobs/Gates/Musks are the shining exceptions. Survivorship bias basically. For every one of them, there's probably 100 other people in leadership positions that have similarly nasty temperaments, but nowhere near as successful as they are.

I'm halfway through Bad Blood (after having already read Musk's and Jobs's iconic biographies) and have been thinking about such comparisons. Were there specific differences that made Musk and Jobs successful compared to Holmes in spite of their flaws, or is it just random dice outcomes that explain why the former managed to turn the impossible into possible and the latter didn't?

The difference was mostly a choice, and it's arguably the main "smart" thing Musk was able to do, whereas Holmes dropped the ball on. Musk's first breakout gig, Paypal, was honestly just dumb luck of being in the right place at the right time - online credit card payments were an inevitability, and it was just arbitrage on getting there before the banks got their feet wet. That is - at the time, "everyone" broadly agreed it was going to happen, even banks, but some groups were institutionally slower about setting it up. He happened to be lucky by getting in on a startup right then, when low-hanging fruit like that was waiting to be plucked.

The left him wealthy enough to fund something else as a sort of Angel Investor, and it was at this point that "his choice of what to fund" was a significant act of cleverness. He looked at the world and asked "what are some things that are technically totally viable, but have been completely stagnant because of political problems in getting funding to try them, rather than any technical problems with them actually working? He spent a few years(!) crunching the numbers on them, and doing some research, and concluded that two things PROBABLY fit that bill: electric cars, and reusable rockets.

What he was ideally looking for is something where an industry had a blind spot - where the industry had "tried it, failed, and decided it's a dead idea nobody should bother trying again". But where they'd done this for a really bad reason.

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These were two things that just needed some billionaire to finally take them seriously - they weren't something some "rogue scientist" could just do in their garage; you genuinely needed major capital investment for said rogue scientists to be able to build test versions and refine their ideas into something that worked.

Electric cars were wide open because all the basic tech was there, but the existing car companies weren't even interested in trying due to cultural reasons. The biggest thing is most of the critical advances in batteries had already been driven by hundreds of billions of R&D dollars in the consumer electronics and computer industry - they'd been desperately pushing battery tech forward, and it'd become orders of magnitude better than it was when the auto industry made a consensus decision that electric cars weren't viable (back in the 80s). In the 80s they had a range of maybe 15 miles, and struggled to get up hills. Auto execs just didn't understand HOW much better batteries had gotten in a mere 10 years (in fact they probably assumed batteries weren't even really improving, and had reached their physical/scientific limits).

Reusable rockets had been scrapped because of the space shuttle's failure; it'd been intended to be completely reusable, and they couldn't pull it off because ... reasons. The consensus was that those "devil in the details" issues would always come up. On closer investigation, though - most of what went wrong is the same procurement malpractice we're currently having with stuff like the F-35 fighter jets, and not something that had any real bearing on the actual engineered work itself.

Similar thing with Jobs - computer GUIs existed, but the only companies that had developed them had been sitting on them and refusing to deploy them as a mass-market product.

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The key difference with Holmes is the fundamental tech keystone (doing medical tests via micro-samples of blood) just wasn't viable. Some biotech researchers tried to sound the alarm about that, but once they were too far into the process of running the company, everyone had already laid down their financial bets and was afraid to pull out.

What happened to them is very similar to what would have happened to SpaceX if it turned out that they were wrong about reusable rockets (for example, if SpaceX had tried to be a company in 1995, before modern computing was able to do all the differential-equation wizardry that lets their rockets land). Or if Tesla had tried to make an electric car company in 1988, and bitterly realized "oh shit, there's no humanly possible way we can make a vehicle with more than 30 miles of range."

You have to take a bet that everyone else is betting against ... and then also be RIGHT about that wild, contrarian bet.

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Choosing that bet was the smart thing Musk did. It's possible to make wickedly smart bets like that, and still be a mediocre manager, but win because the bet itself was just such a bullseye.

One reason for this is that sufficiently good bets can often attract great managers; both Tim Cook, and Gwynne Shotwell, especially, may be great examples of people who've come in under the auspices of a "big idea guy", but have been able to make their companies excel because they replace the poor managerial skills of the idea guy with their own.

But yeah; a guy like Musk's time is best spent not micromanaging their companies, but is best spent strategizing on big picture stuff (like doing the number-crunching to reveal that SpaceX could enable Starlink).

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because it paints a picture of someone with psychopathic tendencies. I'm so tired of this. The article making that claim about CEOs being psychopaths has been latched into in pop culture so hard and yet it's roundly thought of as, at best, an incredible overstep of applied psychiatry. Just because someone doesn't care about you doesn't mean they're incapable, they could just be a dick.

At what point does someone who is consistently a dick become a diagnosable sociopath?

That's for psychiatrists with a personal familiarity with the patient to determine.

A reputable professional wouldn't diagnose from a distance and everyone else is covered by HIPAA.

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