South Korea: The only middle power of its kind • Hacker News Board

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#341

Post by terrorOf » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

forkLding wrote: post #149

dragonwriter wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. Its kind of amazing how often people make judgements based on extrapolating demographic trends over much longer terms than there is any reason to think that they will hold, and then as soon as they fail turn around and do the same thing based on the new demograp…

It is actually quite hard to raise the birth rate, Japan has been trying for years (see https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/Tokyo%E2%... ). The real impediment is that it is now too costly to raise more than 1-2 children and also not enough time. UN 2015 report on Japan's birth rate policy attempts: https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/events/pdf... To summarize, they've started policies a…

as if Japan is gold standard to compare lol. See how disfunction Japan is at this Olympics first and think more.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#342

Post by iammisc » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

feoren wrote: post #307

iammisc wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second core issue is modern dating. That one I don't know how to fix, but the essential issue there is the dynamics of dating not requiring commitment coupled with financial security for women mean long term pair bonding happens at a lower rate and later in life. One way to fix it is the government deciding to highly encourage 'old-fashioned' social norms. For example, we could have single-sex spaces, which hel…

Honestly this sounds like a dystopian nightmare. It sounds like you're saying we all need to go back to everyone being a Good Christian who knows Their Place In Society and that will solve everything. Yikes! Maybe I'm reading too much into it, or do you actually want a Handmaid's Tale future?

How can you honestly compare what I wrote to the handmaid's tale, in which women are forced to breed with men who are not even their husbands? There is no overlap between the two visions. Stop the strawmanning. There is literally nothing 'Christian' (your word, not mine) about men married to infertile women having mistresses. That's literally antithetical to the whole thing.

You talk about 'knowing your place in society' as if that's a bad thing. A lot of social problems today descend from the fact that large portions of the population have no place in society.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#343

Post by iammisc » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

mushbino wrote: post #309

iammisc wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the USA where we don't do anything. Don't even have paid maternal leave.

This is why the US relies heavily on immigration. Keeps profit margins higher.

Except non-immigrants and immigrant americans both have higher birth rates, even if immigrant's are higher.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Post by _RPL5_ » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

presentation wrote: post #134

eatonphil wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but compared to Japan? All of Asia started from scratch after WW2 and Korea was only 10 years behind Japan due to their war. But Tokyo infrastructure felt basically as old as NYC infrastructure to me (a totally qualitative impression). That said, Tokyo is massively cleaner and nicer than NYC even if some of the infrastructure seems old. There is no question it is nicer than NYC.

I live in Tokyo - on the surface certain lines have dated exteriors on their trains and stations, but they are maintained so much better and built with much more care to the surrounding environment that it's impossible for me to compare with NYC. NYC's trains are constantly late, always go out of service, are deafeningly loud, incredibly slow, filthy, don't have great coverage outside of the Manhattan core and genera…

I have not been to Japan, but I have read several fairly detailed accounts coming from multiple travel bloggers.

One thing they all pointed out is that Japan is full of what by our standards would be considered semi-antique technology like trolleys from the 1950s and computers and fax machines from the 1990s, that are all still being used, and maintained in really good condition.

Living in Tokyo, do you notice this as well? I assume this sort of commitment to maintenance / "orderliness" must be cultural?

What do the really bad parts of Tokyo look like?

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#345

Post by iammisc » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #326

iammisc wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dramatically ramp up childcare support. Strongly enforce anti-discrimination laws, particularly in the case of discrimination against mothers. Forbid employers from requiring more than 40h of work per week under certain (very high) compensation thresholds. Provide direct payments to parents that substantially offset the costs of additional children. Align housing policy with the need for larger dwellings for larger…

> By and large, the nations with more childcare support, more protections for pregnant women, etc have lower birthrates than those that don't. That's because they also have more public poverty and old-age support; which reduce the incentive for large families as old age and disability “insurance”. Which on its own is a good thing, but if you want to encourage births anyway, your public support for parenting has to of…

Correct. More elderly welfare programs discourage family formation. Anytime I mention this, people think I'm nuts, but you seem to have come to the conclusion on your own.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#346

Post by adventured » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #295

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those European countries also developed fast without much immigration (including Switzerland and the Nordics, which were not affected much by the war). It may have nothing to do with immigration, but you certainly haven't proved that. Edit: Currently the poorest parts of the US population are stagnating at best, at a time when rates of both legal and illegal immigration are quite high. It is hard to make the argument…

> Currently the poorest parts of the US population are stagnating at best, at a time when rates of both legal and illegal immigration are quite high. It is hard to make the argument that immigration is preventing things from getting worse. An argument that immigration is a net positive for the economy: https://www.thebalance.com/how-immigration-impacts-the-econo... Some anecdotes of small towns being saved by immigra…

> Some anecdotes of small towns being saved by immigration

Why would saving small towns in general be a value?

The US has desperately needed vast consolidation of small population centers and increased population density toward greater urbanization, for many decades.

One of the worst attributes of the US is its over-sprawl and weak development of public transportation. The ideal would be to eliminate thousands upon thousands of small towns, with those populations moving to far superior situations in or near cities, and for the US to stop being lazy and stupid about building out public transportation.

Saving small towns is certainly not a good argument for huge volumes of low-skill immigration at exactly the wrong time in history for that type of immigration. The US should be copying Canada and Australia, focusing primarily on high-skill immigration and dramatically reducing low-skill immigration. What the highly developed welfare states all grasp that the US still doesn't (apparently), is that the immense value in high-skill immigration, beyond the obvious, is that it brings a huge immediate net tax positive that pays for your existing population's social welfare costs, whereas low-skill labor does something closer to the exact opposite. Most low-skill labor would struggle to covers its own real social security cost over time, much less everything else. The US has a very progressive taxation system, high-skill labor foots the tax bills. High-skill labor is also vastly superior as it pertains to net healthcare costs and system subsidization. Every functional welfare state in Europe knows all of this, meanwhile the US is wandering around like an idiot in the dark bumping into walls.

Far less low-skill labor, more automation, far more high-skill labor, increased social safety net from the net tax boost of inverting the labor focus, build public transportation, greater consolidation of population centers, all linked by regional high-speed rail. We already know this model works exceptionally well and we know exactly why it works.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Post by _RPL5_ » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #329

totoglazer wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having visited all the countries mentioned within the last few years - definitely agree. Seoul is an incredible, modern city, unlike any other. Tokyo largely feels like it was frozen in time. Parts of Amsterdam have that sort of feel, but it’s definitely more mixed. Not crumbling, but old and making do since it’s fine.

I don't think Amsterdam is what is meant by the Netherlands. Amsterdam is basically a super old village built in a swamp that it interesting for its history, architecture, culture, and so on. Or for the red light district and weed shops, if you prefer that. It's not a display of infrastructure. The Netherlands has some of the best developed infrastructure nation-wide: roads, railways, and most famously its massive wa…

"well developed economically (punching far above its tiny weight)"

I am being a nitpicker here, but I think there is no correlation between country size and level of economic development. Many of the richest polities in the world are quite small. Places like Singapore & HK come to mind.

I think bigger countries, even if they are "1st world," can sometimes look rather rough, because there is a lot of variation between different regions / municipalities / neighborhoods. It can be surreal sometimes, but it is what it is.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#348

Post by ken47 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #124

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

Not really. Immigration has become an issue lately because a human (or a bare-human) is worth much less. 1.000 years ago a bare illiterate human had some considerable value. He could work in the field or he could fight. More humans, more food and production. More humans, more manpower to fight your enemies. Now a bare semi-educated human is a liability. Which is why most countries are refusing their entrance. Times h…

In 100 years, educated, intelligent people like us could easily be a "liability," as even budget AI far exceeds human intellect on every conceivable dimension. Through their robotic bodies, which they can produce themselves, they can exceed human physical limitations in every imaginable way.

It's going to happen. Ambitious, power-hungry humans are like moths to a flame.

So if you want to imply that you possess some level of intelligence, then take a small inductive step, and then, consider reevaluating your moral outlook on the value of human life.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Post by toephu2 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

eatonphil wrote: post #2

My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly recommend you go to Korea. The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark. In contrast, the US and Japan seem to be somewhat falling apart with a peak in infrastructure and buildings a few decades ago. It's not that bad of course…

> The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark.

I guess you've never been to China?

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Post by yongjik » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

contra-doubts wrote: post #264

This article is wildly off-base and totally misrepresents South Korea, both factually and in tone. There are many ways that South Korea is a great country but this article misses the mark. Source: I've been married to a South Korean for 10 years. > South Korea was able to make these achievements without a citywide nor a nationwide lockdown. A large part of the country is literally in Level 4 lockdowns now (no gatheri…

Some of what you wrote is rather questionable interpretation, and some others make me wonder if your spouse left the country in 1980s and never visited Korea since.

> Korean society is high patriarchal. Domestic violence is persistent. Families are not complete until they have a son. Multiple daughters are considered a burden. Gender roles are consistently enforced.

Korea does have gender equality issues, but this is outdated info. Decades ago, it was illegal for a doctor to tell the sex of a fetus, because some people would want a son and selectively abort girls, resulting in huge sex imbalance. These days, very few people under 70 would think "a complete family needs a son" - if you say anything like that you'll be publicly ridiculed.

Telling fetus sex was made legal in 2010, because nobody gave a damn about "having a son" any more.