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South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#141

Post by mathverse »

babesh wrote: post #137
rjzzleep wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about South Korea, but looking at some other asian countries, there are a couple of things, I think the housing part falls into number 3 but is only a small part of the whole: 1. Having children without being married has a bunch of problems, and in some countries like singapore gets punished for it in lack of certain social services 2. Most of these societies expect women to work or have their husband ta…

I wonder if we need UBI to stabilize the birthrate. Basically if people have some assurance that their kids can be supported and have decent prospects in life then perhaps they will have more kids. Also, our big cities have evolved to serve adults vs children. We have a proliferation of services for adults: sit in restaurants, cafes, coffeehouses, etc… Just look at turnstiles to the subway and the stairs you need to…

For Korea it's not about UBI but about terrible working conditions and societal pressure. Even with UBI you want your children to go to the best schools so they can get a job at one of the Chaebols.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#142

Post by asoneth »

emptysongglass wrote: post #115

I don't see anyone mentioning this so I'll take a gander with my "modern jackass" [1] solution based on my own personal observations of the reasons why I don't want kids: I have so much I still want to do with my life and I want to sink what time free from work into dinners and trips with my wife. Given the extant threat modern nations face, why aren't they offering to care for and raise our children? They'd be raise…

Many countries already invest substantial resources towards caring for children in the form of subsidized daycares, public schooling, subsidized food, etc. I expect demographics will force many countries to become even more generous in this regard.

If you're referring to the government or other entity taking primary guardianship of children that does already occur in the foster/adoption system, but I don't understand why you think that would boost the birth rate. Would it motivate you to have children if the government offered to take them off your hands after they're born?

I suppose the closest example I can think of to something like that would be joining a commune or kibbutz and avoiding the childcare chores, but I understand that most of those groups have a whole other set of demographic/retention issues.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#143

Post by dragonwriter »

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

> SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world.

Its kind of amazing how often people make judgements based on extrapolating demographic trends over much longer terms than there is any reason to think that they will hold, and then as soon as they fail turn around and do the same thing based on the new demographic trend.

Encouraging births isn't hard if a government decides its important.

OTOH, most of the arguments I’ve seen for it actually being important (in the near term) are the kind where you scratch the surface and underneath is pure racism, so I’m not all that concerned.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#144

Post by lvl100 »

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

You’re assuming a lot here and utilizing an outdated view. Population growth is not necessary when you’re primarily an export-focused country such as South Korea. And more specifically when your biggest trading partner is none other than China.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#145

Post by babesh »

bobthepanda wrote: post #101
rjzzleep wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about South Korea, but looking at some other asian countries, there are a couple of things, I think the housing part falls into number 3 but is only a small part of the whole: 1. Having children without being married has a bunch of problems, and in some countries like singapore gets punished for it in lack of certain social services 2. Most of these societies expect women to work or have their husband ta…

> Having children is expensive and the education stress that follows for over a decade after giving birth is even more straining. This times 100. The US education system has a lot of flaws, but for the most part, school placement is usually based on geographical location (which comes with its own set of problems), the SAT and ACT are not terribly difficult, and more importantly those college exams can be retaken mult…

The high tech/high income areas in the US are behaving a lot like this. There is a focus on getting into elite colleges and it propagates all the way down the system to preschool. As you alluded to, this makes it very expensive. People have maybe 2 and sometimes 1 kid… definitely below replacement level.

The one difference I have noticed is that some of those Asian countries are more extreme in that more people choose to not have kids and more people choose to have only one kid instead of two.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#146

Post by cyberlurker »

keykoo wrote: post #108
eatonphil wrote: post #2

My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly recommend you go to Korea. The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark. In contrast, the US and Japan seem to be somewhat falling apart with a peak in infrastructure and buildings a few decades ago. It's not that bad of course…

I'm sorta surprised by your statement. I've lived in Seoul, Tokyo, and NYC for various periods of my life and I'd definitely say Tokyo feels the most "modern" when you scratch beneath the surface. For example, I'd say the basic subway system between Seoul and Tokyo are pretty similar but you also have the advantage of a vastly superior rail network that serves Greater Tokyo and the rest of Japan. KTX and SRT in Korea…

The yellow dust is commonly thought to come from China. It’s not good but isn’t an issue South Korea can address alone.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#147

Post by devchix »

> South Korea’s rise to a middle power status comes without much historical baggage

The kingdom of Joseon was annexed entirely by Japan in 1905. Modern Korea (nevermind the North/South prefix) would not exist had the US not enter WWII. The 35-years under Japan is a major flashpoint in Japan-Korea relation, it's a joke that the thing that unites North and South is their common hatred of Japan. I'm surprised there's not a more nationalistic jingoistic attitude from South Korea, given their economic state today. Historians agree that the costly outcome of the Russo-Japanese war led to the rise of militaristic Japan and their entry into WWII.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#148

Post by ptsneves »

radmuzom wrote: post #125
ptsneves wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article title explicitly calls out South Korea. The country is also recognized as sovereign nation by more than 188 countries, having a seat in the United Nations as well. Territorial disputes are common even in Europe, as well as developments out of brutal dictatorship. I honestly do not get your point :)

OP was explicitly referring to South Korea too. If you are not aware of their extremely brutal past, here are few links to get you started (these articles just skim the surface, much deeper study is needed if you really want to get into the details). https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/05/south-korea-park-chung-he... https://www.smh.com.au/world/south-korea-owns-up-to-brutal-p... https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/the-forgo…

The brutal past exists in Europe as well. Portugal had a colonial war up to 1974 with records of mass executions in Africa. Franco's Spain had it's own dark history with mass graves still being uncovered. Franco' regime ended even later and the country still has staunch Franco supporters. Do you not consider Salazar or Franco's regime up to par to South Korea? If not what is the criteria?

Also to answer the other comment, Russia has repeatedly toyed with the idea of a nuclear bombing to Warsaw as well as invading the baltic. The baltic states are more than within range for a ground invasion. Poland has a border with the Kaliningrad enclave as well. Now you might say, that Russia would not dare... Well ask any baltic state how scared shitless they were with how easy Russia imposed itself on Ukraine. I honestly do not see how Korea is in a much different scenario.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#149

Post by forkLding »

dragonwriter wrote: post #143
calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

> SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. Its kind of amazing how often people make judgements based on extrapolating demographic trends over much longer terms than there is any reason to think that they will hold, and then as soon as they fail turn around and do the same thing based on the new demograp…

It is actually quite hard to raise the birth rate, Japan has been trying for years (see https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/Tokyo%E2%...). The real impediment is that it is now too costly to raise more than 1-2 children and also not enough time.

UN 2015 report on Japan's birth rate policy attempts: https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/events/pdf... To summarize, they've started policies and measures since 1992-1994 but UN reports and I quote: "Despite these efforts, Japan’s family policy so far appears to have been largely ineffective."

There are other news opinion articles from Japan: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/06/04/editorials/u...

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#150

Post by babesh »

mathverse wrote: post #141
babesh wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if we need UBI to stabilize the birthrate. Basically if people have some assurance that their kids can be supported and have decent prospects in life then perhaps they will have more kids. Also, our big cities have evolved to serve adults vs children. We have a proliferation of services for adults: sit in restaurants, cafes, coffeehouses, etc… Just look at turnstiles to the subway and the stairs you need to…

For Korea it's not about UBI but about terrible working conditions and societal pressure. Even with UBI you want your children to go to the best schools so they can get a job at one of the Chaebols.

Wouldn’t UBI serve as a counterweight to terrible working conditions and societal pressure?
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