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SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

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Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly believe the consuming less is not the way to solve the climate crisis. The reason is that it's thought from a perspective of the global north, that assumes we just need to restrict a little to achieve a lot. That is not going to solve the global climate crisis. The simple reason is that there are 7 billion people who are not living in the rich countries. These people have the right to access resources as m…

> We could literally stop this with the signing of a bill. That may be, but Occam's razor suggests that it would be a good idea to ask why that still hasn't been done. Surely there are some reason why such obvious and useful things still haven't been implemented, right? I may be wrong, but i'd like to suggest that there are certain interest groups behind all of that, for whom such changes would be bad for business. A…

> That may be, but Occam's razor suggests that it would be a good idea to ask why that still hasn't been done. Surely there are some reason why such obvious and useful things still haven't been implemented, right? I may be wrong, but i'd like to suggest that there are certain interest groups behind all of that, for whom such changes would be bad for business.

Clearly there are, we want cheaper Brazilian beef, Indonesian palm oil, Cambodian agricultural products. But let's say we tax imports from countries that don't clamp down on crop burning, I doubt the average consumer would feel any difference. The last flood in Germany is estimated to cost 10 billion Euro. Overall the benefit would outweigh the cost.

>Also, what makes you think that both approaches couldn't be utilized? Use less resources, increase taxes to compensate the drop in prices that would otherwise follow and gradually stop subsidizing things like meat production, at least to the degree where the price at stores is artificially lowered. At the same time, attempt to subsidize wind, sun, geothermal, nuclear and other forms of getting electricity and see whether things are better or worse in 50 years.

I think using less resources can certainly help but to a degree that it almost doesn't matter. Especially if it's just about irrelevant stand-ins. For example the EU will forbid the sale of fossil fuel motorbikes in 2035. This is about something that has an effect on 0.1% of the carbon emission of a single economic area. And with motorcycles the benefits are way way less than cars as they are driven a lot less than cars and the increased CO2 of production takes years to result in CO2 reductions of the lifetime. So a whole industry is forced to build new factories develop new models for the smallest of the small reductions, while the big stuff is left on the table. Or SUV's. SUV owners are demonized, while millions of tons of CO2 are emitted shipping Chinese made goods around the globe.

> Those approaches are not mutually exclusive, as long as you have plenty of legislative bodies on your side. Sadly, we don't and probably won't, at least until a generational shift takes place. As Planck's principle states: "Science progresses one funeral at a time", which could be attributed to social policies to some degree as well.

Agreed and this is what I want to achieve. A science driven approach not one of pandering to envy and the industry groups.

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#352
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly believe the consuming less is not the way to solve the climate crisis. The reason is that it's thought from a perspective of the global north, that assumes we just need to restrict a little to achieve a lot. That is not going to solve the global climate crisis. The simple reason is that there are 7 billion people who are not living in the rich countries. These people have the right to access resources as m…

Reductions are not gonna work nor tech. Technology is just going to increase demand.

So the only way is to accept it?

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in America things like this can happen. A whole industry bootstrapping itself to make semi-conductors doubling every 18 months, going from exotic, mission critical hardware to commodity; SpaceX is doing the same thing with flight hardware. Contrast that with previous generation engines (the RS-25 comes to mind) with a sticker price of 125 millions... per engine! [0] [0] https://spacenews.com/aerojet-rocketdyne-d…

What is it about America (or other countries) that makes you think this couldn't happen anywhere else?

I think it certainly could happen anywhere else in the world.

After years of living abroad, I've come to realize one thing about America and Americans. We're a bit more willing to risk it and fail. Sure, loads of people would rather have a secure job and not make risky decisions. Still, I think there's a higher concentration of those who will. Compared to lots of places on Earth.

Also, for many who immigrate here, there's kind of no choice but to risk it and try to do something bold and crazy to make it.

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#354
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of points where I disagree with you, but one in particular I hear very often and should be debunked. A colony on mars, even of significant size and population, is 100% condemned to certain death if separated from Earth. It would be, for all intents and purposes, in the same "basket". Google "how to make a pen from scratch" for a quick primer into why, but the tl;dr version is that it takes having a…

Watch 'Mars Industrialization Roadmap' by Casey Handmer. That is exactly what he is addressing. He literally mentions the 'I, Pencil'. And btw a million people is the goal, not 1000. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11hYo9UTSRM And the corresponding book: How To Industrialize Mars: A Strategy For Self-Sufficiency: How To Settle A Lethal Vacuum In 400 Easy Steps Part of the whole project of Mars is making thi…

The full conversation is a bit longer, and should veer into things like economic incentives: Mars will build nails pretty soon, electric screwdrivers a bit later, but microprocessors probably never, because it's many orders of magnitude cheaper to import them from earth, even if they have to sell electric screwdrivers in exchange.

There are quite a few steps to proper, long term self-sufficiency. You need the colonists to get there, to form a permanent settlement, to get to reasonable numbers, to make a place where people would want to raise families into, to get to a point where it has a balanced trade deficit and so on.

Everything up to here is mostly science fiction material, but if Musk lives long enough it might actually happen.

Now, from this point you need a nation-sized colony on Mars make a strategic decision to duplicate critical infrastructure on Mars just to be self-sufficient. This is the step that the OP with his panicked "must not put all eggs in the same basket let the rockets fly now" is not even aware it exists. As an order of magnitude is probably at least equal to everything up to then. Partly because it's objectively hard, and also because when you have a nation-sized bunch of people, you have to convince them to invest half their resources to build factories that will make microprocessors that by the time you finish will be more expensive than those imported from earth, and probably also obsolete. And you have to keep investing in such obsolete industries because a million people can't compete with 10 billion that don't have to manufacture their air. Multiply this for every domain where you need such critical high-tech industries, like medical.

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point wasn't just about SpaceX. "A whole industry bootstrapping itself to make semi-conductors doubling every 18 months". That semiconductor manufacturing industry is largely overseas and has been for awhile.

and is, oddly enough, coming back to the US. There's a semiconductor fab opening in Austin courtesy of Samsung, and a semi fab in arizona courtesy of TSMC. I guess they are taking advantage of labor and technical expertise due to intel's chandler site?

> I guess they are taking advantage of labor and technical expertise due to intel's chandler site?

Or geopolitical concerns.

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#356
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an annoying argument. The government gave $18B to the SLS and so far has vapor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Launch_System The government spent $211B on the shuttle program and got 133 launches. SpaceX will probably surpass that number this year at a fraction of the cost. NASA's record on rockets since Apollo has been abysmal. I don't think government is necessarily bad (the Russians did a much be…

For what it’s worth, NASA doesn’t directly build much. Even the Apollo program was a huge web of private vendors (many who still exist today). SpaceX is/was just another entry on the long list of private contractors commissioned to build things for NASA, DoD, et al. But different here is that SpaceX worked at very very different speed than Aerojet Rocketdyne, ULA, and all the other old-space fossils. Still, those old…

> For what it’s worth, NASA doesn’t directly build much. Even the Apollo program was a huge web of private vendors (many who still exist today).

All created because the government wanted something done and was willing to cut a check:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#358

How so many educated, intelligent people seem to think that we (as a species, or even as Americans) are so resource-poor that “space exploration” and “improving the earth” yield an either/or decision absolutely mystifies me. You want to free up resources for either one? Start with global military spending and the financial sector. Both have their place and both have grown far beyond it.

Malthusians exist. They think we're running out of oil, soil and arable land, fresh water, and... just about everything. The logic is that since population growth is exponential, we really could run out of resources. And... that's both totally correct and totally wrong. Totally correct: because yeah, duh, if we had 1 trillion people... Totally wrong: because in fact the arc of evolution of fertility rates, population…

On the environment and fauna, animals are going extinct (like the white rhino) so yes, we are running out of stuff.

Trees—like Dominican mahogany grow really slowly and now there are so few of them we have basically run out. I can name several other examples—most notably Guayacan.

There is a bunch of scarcity and destruction. I’m pretty sure we can fix them—but for the trees and the animals it’s unlikely that I get to experience them as was so in previous lifetimes.

It’s a shame we couldn’t manage them sustainably previously.

Re: SpaceX installed 29 Raptor engines on a Super Heavy rocket last night

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Maybe it will eventually reach the amount spent on causing brain damage to teenagers.

For the amount of downvotes I received, is this the best rebuttal anybody can come up with?

There is nothing to rebut.

Financially and ecologically this is not worse than manufacturing products in China and shipping them all over the world, or usual stuff like tourism, cloud computing etc.

I would argue that Starship is even more ecological than the other rockets, as it requires a cleaner fuel than Falcon (methane vs kerosene) and should be fully reusable (i.e. no tossing the rocket in the ocean and hoping it will sink).

If we manage to bootstrap space manufacturing, benefits for ecology, biology and material science are also self-evident.

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