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Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

homelandsecuritynewswire.com

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Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#271

Post by dang »

poisonarena wrote: post #268
dang wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get that, I understand, and I feel for your situation. But you still have to follow the rules here. Other people breaking the rules doesn't entitle you to break them. They aren't allowed to break the rules, either, and we try our hardest to be as even-handed about this as we possibly can. There are a lot of cognitive biases at work in these situations. It always feels like the other person started it; it al…

You are right. I am going to not even click the links with the "Israel" in them to save myself anguish. Positive vibes only

Thank you for the kind reply. I know it's not easy! Believe me I know :)

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#272

Post by jamra »

DSingularity wrote: post #92
stevenjohns wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ridiculously short sighted and bordering on racist. Let's bomb all of Israel's infrastructure, arm various militias in the country and put economic sanctions on them for 20 years that limits the country to a grain-for-food programme and you'll quickly see Israel join in as a regional "basketcase."

It’s not “bordering” on racist - it is racist! It is sad to see this dehumanization towards Arabs from this community. Posters like this show that they believe that maintaining and increasing US hegemony at the expense of third world peoples is moral.

Israel consists largely of Arabs as well. Half of the Jewish population is Arabic just like me.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#273

Post by skinkestek »

bjourne wrote: post #257
skinkestek wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has anyone of them mentioned the massive irony in Israel returning lands stolen from Jews while at the same time keeping all the land it itself stole from Palestinians? To the degree that land has been stolen recently except by Jordan it was by UN and the British I think. Israeli land was either bought, traded, given by UN, won in defensive wars (and most of that have been given back in return for peace). You could…

During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants. Israel does not believe that any of the land or property it confiscated should be returned to its former Arab Palestinian owners. At the same time, property owned by…

> During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants.

And this is why there is so many Arabs living happily in Israel today. /s

Quite on the contrary I've read that Israel asked Arabs to stay in Israel during the 1948 war - for selfish reasons - but still.

Surrounding Arab countries asked Arabs in Israel to leave temporarily to make "shoveling the Jews into the ocean" easier. Those who left "temporarily" are the ancestors of those who live in refugee camps today. Those who stayed are the ancestors of Arabs living good lives in Israel today. More or less.

edit: Confiscating the homes of those who left to make it simpler to wipe you into the sea is a bit different than bulk killing people (genocide) and taking their homes. endedit.

Also remember that far more Jews were forced out of surrounding countries and into Israel than Arabs out of Israel.

If Arabs from what is today Israel should get their homes back I suppose Jews should get their homes and shops back in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc?

edit: Or can we finally accept that it was botched by UN and actively sabotaged by neigbouring countries? That the sad fate of the Arabs from Israel is less the fault of Israelis and that the ones to blame are neighbor Arab states and the UN? end edit

If any of this is news to anyone just think how much more biased news organizations hide from you.

Everyone should start reading.

PS: I'm not saying Israelis are innocent. I'm saying that media has massively misrepresented the situation for a few decades, selectively presented only the things that makes Israel look bad.

Many of them are true, but as shown above the full story is a bit more nuanced...

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#274

Post by sangnoir »

havelhovel wrote: post #232
ohashi wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article makes a pretty good reason why it's aimed at the state. The potentially close relationship between private companies and the state and how intelligence is/was likely shared between them. If that's true, NSO Group is acting as an agent of the state - thus Israel would be spying on France and caught doing it. Thus the anger directed at the state level, as well as the company and governments. A lot of the go…

Yet those reasons are circumstantial and unverified claims, whereas we know that Morocco spied on France. If, and that is an if, Israel received intelligence as a result, Morocco is still the country that crossed that line. The framing makes no sense. Why is a third party, Israel, limiting fallout instead of Morocco?

If it's clearly not a big deal, can you explain why the Israeli defense minister is in France?

An Israeli company made a weapon, assembled it, loaded it and acted as a spotter for Morocco, who's the party that selected the french targets and then pulled the trigger. Even if the intelligence wasn't shared, the Israeli government should be held responsible for its arms exports.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#275

Post by joelbluminator »

luffapi wrote: post #261
joelbluminator wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its really not though, the declaration never went into specifics on what parts will become Jewish exactly for this reason. It said a Jewish home IN Plaestine, not that all of Palestine will become Jewish. And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now?

A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else. This is as textbook a case of colonialism as there is. > And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now? It’s literally the basis for every problem we’re discussing. Israel didn’t magically become not a colony, it’s enforced its apartheid state since it was created by western superpo…

> A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else

That's you interpreting Balfour / Zionism the way you see fit, there were movements in Zionism that wanted to split the land, in fact the main movement wanted to split the land since 1937 for sure (agreeing to the Peel committee split plan) and maybe even before that. But the declaration itself just says - a national Jewish home in Palestine. There were unoccupied territories in Palestine 100 years ago. In fact there still are, even when this tiny land inhabits 15 million people and not just 1.5 millions like 100 years ago. If Balfour wanted to say explicitly that all of Palestine is to become Jewish he would have said so. It doesn't even say a state or a country, just a "national home". You're attributing to Balfour more than what was written.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#276

Post by luffapi »

joelbluminator wrote: post #275
luffapi wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else. This is as textbook a case of colonialism as there is. > And even if it is "the definition of colonialism", what does it have to do with anything now? It’s literally the basis for every problem we’re discussing. Israel didn’t magically become not a colony, it’s enforced its apartheid state since it was created by western superpo…

> A colony is the establishment of a new state on or in territory occupied by someone else That's you interpreting Balfour / Zionism the way you see fit, there were movements in Zionism that wanted to split the land, in fact the main movement wanted to split the land since 1937 for sure (agreeing to the Peel committee split plan) and maybe even before that. But the declaration itself just says - a national Jewish hom…

Those territories weren’t “unoccupied” though. They were occupied and not consulted in the formation of Israel. It really is the root of the issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balfour_Declarati...

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#277

Post by DSingularity »

yyyk wrote: post #250
DSingularity wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers rights is a separate discussion and one in which the entire gulf region is shamefully criminal. I asked about the unparalleled brutality of a Crown Prince ordering the dismemberment of a journalist. Remember, this is a person who we host in the White House to shake hands with a smiling president — it matters that the whole world knows he ordered the killing and that the whole world continues to look the other…

>Workers rights is a separate discussion in which the entire gulf region is shamefully criminal. It's not. It's a human rights issue, which has led to many deaths. Qatar has a far worse record than the rest of the Gulf. >Remember, this is a person who we host in the White House to shake hands with a smiling president So you don't want to do any diplomacy with unsavory regimes? With this standard, the US couldn't even…

Now you are bringing in Iran?

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#278

Post by bengalister »

krageon wrote: post #136
bengalister wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong and exaggerated on so many levels. What you are saying is caricature of the left extremist way of thinking. No the yellow vest movement was nothing but peaceful, quite violent actually, throwing cobbles or molotov cocktails at police forces, using forklifts to force their way or destroy public properties, burning banks, setting cars on fire, etc. They were even allowed to demonstrate every week for at least 2 y…

> supposedly humanitarian If they pick up people 50km out to sea and stick them somewhere where they won't die, that is in fact literally humanitarian.

The point is that Libya or even Tunisia is much closer than Sicilia (>200km away).

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#279

Post by PhasmaFelis »

seoaeu wrote: post #214
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" being "Israeli propagandists" as referenced in the previous comment. What you're doing is exactly what we're talking about. Trying to shut down any criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic bigotry. It's no different than the 50 Cent Army ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army ) dismissing all criticism of the CCP as sinophobia.

Clever. By labeling anyone who alleges antisemitism as an "Israeli propagandist" you can shut down any discussion of antisemitism without having to engage with whether there may be any bigotry or prejudice in play But seriously, ask yourself if there is any way a Jew could tell you "Hey, what you're saying about Israel is kinda racist because XYZ" without you immediately dismissing them. (And maybe there is! I haven'…

I don't know about others, but when I said "Israeli propagandists" I meant literally the Israeli government's official public relations, e.g. the people who did this: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/6/23/my-zionism-isra... I might disagree with random internet posters, but I wouldn't generally call them "propagandists".

> But seriously, ask yourself if there is any way a Jew could tell you "Hey, what you're saying about Israel is kinda racist because XYZ" without you immediately dismissing them.

I'd be willing to listen to their argument. It's gonna depend on what the initial statement was.

There are plenty of people who criticize Israel and are also antisemitic, and they often try to cloak it in reasonable-sounding arguments. That does not mean that all reasonable-sounding arguments against Israeli policies are automatically racist. If someone says "Israel is bombing Palestine again, you know how those Israelis are," that would sound like it could be a dog whistle. If someone says "Israel is bombing Palestine again, they're just perpetuating the cycle of violence," that seems reasonable enough--but I have seen more than a few people who would call even that antisemitic.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#280

Post by bzbarsky »

luffapi wrote: post #246
bzbarsky wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. Anti-semitism has nothing to do with the movement to create a homeland for the Jewish people (which then tried to garner the support of various governments, which is where the Balfour Declaration comes in)? It has everything to do with it. Were there various colonialism-related issues involved too, of course. But pretending like that's the entire story is quite disingenuous.

> create a homeland for the Jewish people This is clearly colonialism by definition. It’s the entire story because there is no justification for oppressing and colonizing others, even if the people doing it also face discrimination. It’s not an excuse and shouldn’t be part of the conversation.

I think there's an interesting argument to be had here about the point at which "self-determination" becomes "colonialism". A group that is sufficiently geographically diffuse does not have a right to self-determination (ipso facto, because it's not the majority anywhere). Your position seems to be that an attempt by such a group to concentrate geographically somewhere in order to exercise the right to self-determination is fundamentally illegitimate because any such attempt is "colonialism".

Is that an accurate representation of your views? If not, what is?

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