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Why women in tech are so angry all the time

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Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#61

Post by jm__87 »

bitwize wrote: post #22
proc0 wrote: post #4

Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how their children grow up to treat others. To solve a problem, the root cause must be found, and the root cause of harassment is NOT other men. Sure men could help, but articles like this seem to demand it, like they're yelling at men, as a group, for the actions o…

Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizi…

Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#62

Post by ekager »

bArray wrote: post #52
ekager wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think it would go showing anonymous death threats to the police? I can tell you because we’ve tried! Not well. They laugh you out of the station. You think giving advice to “not doxx yourself” is useful advice? It is not. We are hyper aware of our safety and still have to be afraid of unknown creeps - anonymous trolls who we can’t “do something about”. “I hope instead of trying to find sexism in tech indus…

> How do you think it would go showing anonymous death threats to the police? I can tell you because we’ve tried! Not well. They laugh you out of the station. There's several reasons for reporting anonymous death threats (even if I find it weird that police would openly laugh in your face): 1. If you need to make a case in the future you have documented evidence. You can bring a police report to court. 2. When statis…

I am the author.

If I published under a pseudo name then the comments here would be “This is fake. Not even a real person is willing to say this”. You truly can’t win.

I said in the article that not every woman in tech gets death threats. But I have and you seem to want to find reasons to blame me for getting them or make me seem “off the rails” for feeling any fear.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#63

Post by ekager »

jessedhillon wrote: post #47
ekager wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women discussing their personal experiences is "controversial"? And we "should expect" trolling and harassment and worse? That's exactly the problem. You think that that's normal and acceptable.

For the record, I didn't say any of this. It's not controversial to talk about your experience. It's certainly controversial to generalize your experience across an entire industry, or sex. And it's not acceptable to be harassed, but yes it's normal and not specific to women.

So when ~50% of women working in tech have experienced harassment is that enough of a pattern to generalize? Or does it need to be 100% before we can talk about it?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/40percent-of-women-in-tech-s...

Beyond that, harassment is not the only problem I talked about.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#64

Post by st3fan »

andreskytt wrote: post #51

I do apologize. People, including me, don’t go spend their lives talking to computers because they are great at talking to people. I’m bad at reading social context, probably on the autism spectrum and many of my colleagues over the last 30 years have been like me. There’s a high chance I’ve expressed what’s called a microagression in the post without intending to so. I can’t tell. I often can’t even tell I offended…

Please read the following for more viewpoints on this topic

https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Autism_is_to_blame

I'd like to add that I am really disappointed that this "So maybe it just helps talking to people?" comment is at the top of the comments here. It is incredibly tone deaf and borderline victim blaming.

It is such an easy explanation that many people here will accept. Yet it is a fallacy, out of touch with reality.

Does anyone really think that the "on the spectum" workforce is the reason for the systemic issues in the tech industry?!

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#65

Post by st3fan »

skinkestek wrote: post #54

Let me start by saying that I've seen some really horrible and disgusting treatment of women compared to men. At one place. Out of 10. At least around here I also see that if two persons, one woman and one man, apply for the same position, and they are seen as exactly equally qualified, the woman gets hired first. Why? Because amount of women in the department is a KPI. I also see men walking circles around these iss…

> At least around here I also see that if two persons, one woman and one man, apply for the same position, and they are seen as exactly equally qualified, the woman gets hired first. Why? Because amount of women in the department is a KPI.

Explain why this is a problem? You say these two candidates are equally great. Should the man have been picked?

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#66

Post by klyrs »

ekager wrote: post #59
zozbot234 wrote: post #58

This "women are so angry" stuff is just a damaging, sexist stereotype. Men are far more aggressive than women, and nobody's calling them "angry" as a result. What an awful, clickbait article.

Did you actually read the article?

Vouched, despite this generally being against the guidelines, because this isn't actually a question. GP wouldn't be so dismissive if they'd read the article.

Many women in tech, myself and the author included, are angry, because of how we're treated. The fact that this plays into a stereotype that's used as a dismissal is a problem we need to talk about. Related issue: abuse victims are less productive at work, because of the abuse. Trump said the quiet part loud: "He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured." That's subtext behind every claim of a "pipeline problem."

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#67

Post by klyrs »

jm__87 wrote: post #40
bluefirebrand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption is that somehow every man is complicit. Like we all know about every bad thing that happens to women in our lives and workplace. Not only that, it assumes we have the power to fix things or make changes and we just choose not to. I don't know about other men but it absolutely alienates me from "the cause". I'm not having anything to do with people who start out by assuming I'm part of their problem.

I find articles like this annoying but this woman doesn't speak for all women in tech. Presumably some women can relate to her experiences, others can't. Some women will agree with her proposed solutions, others won't. Assuming the goal here is just to provide a workplace where women are treated fairly and not subject to harassment, I think that is a fair thing to ask for. I agree that as a man, it shouldn't be my jo…

> I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior.

That's cool. If I steal somebody's wallet at work, you've got my back?

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#68

Post by jm__87 »

klyrs wrote: post #67
jm__87 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find articles like this annoying but this woman doesn't speak for all women in tech. Presumably some women can relate to her experiences, others can't. Some women will agree with her proposed solutions, others won't. Assuming the goal here is just to provide a workplace where women are treated fairly and not subject to harassment, I think that is a fair thing to ask for. I agree that as a man, it shouldn't be my jo…

> I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior. That's cool. If I steal somebody's wallet at work, you've got my back?

This isn't really a fair comparison. If someone is doing something blatantly and obviously illegal, then that is different. If I saw a male coworker punch a female coworker in the face, then obviously I am going to do something. I'm assuming the majority of workplace interactions that women have issue with are not blatantly and obviously illegal. Advances/flirting that is unwanted, crude jokes, condescension, etc. I have no idea if a woman is perceiving an interaction with a male colleague as one of these things without her telling me. I don't know what kind of relationship she has with this guy who is engaging in this behavior. I feel it would be premature of me to assume that every time I saw something that I think a woman would perceive as harassment that she is actually perceiving this as harassment AND that she needs my help to deal with it. Many women are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves and don't want or need a "white knight" to rush in and help them.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#69

Post by bArray »

ekager wrote: post #62
bArray wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you think it would go showing anonymous death threats to the police? I can tell you because we’ve tried! Not well. They laugh you out of the station. There's several reasons for reporting anonymous death threats (even if I find it weird that police would openly laugh in your face): 1. If you need to make a case in the future you have documented evidence. You can bring a police report to court. 2. When statis…

I am the author. If I published under a pseudo name then the comments here would be “This is fake. Not even a real person is willing to say this”. You truly can’t win. I said in the article that not every woman in tech gets death threats. But I have and you seem to want to find reasons to blame me for getting them or make me seem “off the rails” for feeling any fear.

> I am the author.

That wasn't clear, apologies - but also now you have tied you HN username that was otherwise anonymous to your real name. If you believe you have a very real risk of death, please do not make it easier for people to determine who you are.

Honestly I am saddened that you see the world through the lens you write about. The path you are on does not lead to happiness, I hope this doesn't play as large a role in your life as your article leads one to believe.

> If I published under a pseudo name then the comments here would be “This is fake. Not even a real person is willing to say this”. You truly can’t win.

There are many cases where there is no good option, but if you believe your life to be in danger, pick the option of self preservation. Also I doubt that putting a name to an article really makes it any more credible to your critics, the goalposts simply move from 'you are not real' to 'your experience is not real'.

> But I have and you seem to want to find reasons to blame me for getting them or make me seem “off the rails” for feeling any fear.

I always look at things with scepticism - especially when I realize somebody is trying to change my world view. That said, I can believe that you have likely received some crazy messages, even if just being a human that creates content on the internet.

What I think is a leap is to believe that some random package that arrives has a very real threat of containing anthrax. If this is a genuinely held belief (and not just story garnish) then it appears like a self-induced paranoia.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#70

Post by bArray »

st3fan wrote: post #57
bArray wrote: post #42

Every comment so far has been downvoted, I have some internet points to spend. > My first thought was someone had mailed me anthrax. That's your first thought? The harassment later described sounds insane - if you are receiving death threats call the police, open a case. It'll strengthen your position if you later need to go to court. What you don't do is post about it online, to let your attacker know they were succ…

This response is 100% victim blaming. There is not a single recognition. No single question. No empathy. It is 100% "it is your fault" and "it is because of your own choices and actions". bArray - you are the problem here.

> This response is 100% victim blaming.

I lock my front door at night and I imagine you do too. In an ideal society no crime occurs, and we can all leave our doors unlocked at night. In reality - if we can make small changes to our lifestyle to limit our exposure to risk, we tend to do them.

But that all rides on the assumption that I accept the designation of 'victim' - I already argued against 'Listen to and believe women'. The author speaks of feeling a very feel threat of an anthrax attack, one that is likely inflated. Based on that, it's not unreasonable to believe that other claims in the article may also be inflated.

> bArray - you are the problem here.

I do enjoy the classic "if you're not with me, you're against me" argument. It's not at all possible for us both to agree that sexism in the workplace is bad, but have different opinions about how to solve it.

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