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London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

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Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#41

Post by crocal »

loufe wrote: post #39

Can anybody here give a quick overview of why there are such delays for the line opening?

Crossrail is legendary in the field as the example of what not to do when managing mega projects.

What I was told by greybeards: systems engineering was non-existent and rushed to the « let’s start to concrete » phase. When the project started to install the various systems, all hell broke loose. For example, systems had to be taken in, then out, because they just didn’t work in the field.

Side note: which makes this article really a good laugh. Who cares if your virtual model works if it does not in the real world?

OK so, that would not have been too bad if the management of the mega project would just have recognized the fuck up and declared delays. Instead, it scrambled to find ways to recuperate the accumulating delays, while reporting green to the politicians. As usual, a cretin came into the room to suggest that signalling tests could be compressed down and commissioning tests could proceed while construction completed the remaining work.

Problem: crossrail decided to experiment with a new hybrid signalling system that uses two different types of train control in order to maximize throughput in central london area. That turned an already rotten idea into an impossible one. Situation in the fields became insane. Signalling contractor shot a letter to cover ass. Politicians finally noticed, and sent clueless consultants to investigate, therefore opening the gates of hell.

Aaaaah. I like the scent of Napalm in the tunnels.

EDIT: typos

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#42

Post by ksec »

user5994461 wrote: post #27
throw0101a wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trust me, nobody will even remember a few years of delays. I remember someone commenting that given the choice, it's better to delay shipping video games if you need to fix things. This is because not long after release no one will remember it being late, but everyone will remember (hearing that) it being a pile of garbage. Reputations are often very hard to shake.

That's not true anymore with online updates and early access on steam. You can ship a game with lots of bugs and missing content, as long as the price is set in consequence.

You only have one chance to make a first impression.

- Someone.

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#43

Post by 7952 »

neRok wrote: post #32
detritus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in the context of the linked article and hence the comments here, it seems relevant to mention the fact - 5 years after the article's publication - and to consider whether the reliance on comprehensive digital modelling might be in any way to blame for the delays?

> consider whether the reliance on comprehensive digital modelling might be in any way to blame for the delays? Maybe. 3D models have been used to design and plan projects for over 20 years now (I've been in the industry in Aus for >15 years), and so the bulk of the models are not at fault here (because if these design models were the delay, the construction would also be delayed, but the article suggests it wasn't).…

I have worked on major construction projects and a complicating factor is the sheer number of different disciplines involved. Teams work with their own systems and maintain their own state and then inexorably get out of sync. In computing this kind of thing is understood at a more fundamental level. You have locks, transactions, branches, merges, continuous integration etc. These same problems exist when designing a major project but are not understood.

Information systems exist but seem to have shocking data models designed by committees. Existing software and experience is then transposed on top of this information system. But the engineers don't have expertise in data and are using software from another age that makes "drawings". Adding a live "as built" component to that is just asking for trouble.

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#44

Post by dang »

Discussed at the time:

London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11562799 - April 2016 (11 comments)

London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11378752 - March 2016 (1 comment)

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#45

Post by ArchitectAnon »

crocal wrote: post #41
loufe wrote: post #39

Can anybody here give a quick overview of why there are such delays for the line opening?

Crossrail is legendary in the field as the example of what not to do when managing mega projects. What I was told by greybeards: systems engineering was non-existent and rushed to the « let’s start to concrete » phase. When the project started to install the various systems, all hell broke loose. For example, systems had to be taken in, then out, because they just didn’t work in the field. Side note: which makes this…

I've worked on some mega projects as well, and the key to being on time and on budget is to manage the PR so that no-one knows when it's supposed to be completed and how much it's going to cost. The only difference between Crossrail and private sector projects is that there is no press scoutiny over how much over budget they have gone and how late they are.

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#46

Post by Swenrekcah »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #30
user5994461 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COVID and Brexit have drastically reduced the amount of commuters, for the foreseeable decades. Don't be surprised that $20B transportation projects are being reconsidered.

The best capital improvements are the ones that you can obviate away through cheap behavioral or societal adjustments (just as the best line of code is the one you can remove or didn’t have to write).

These words aren't necessarily wrong, but quite irrelevant here, since Brexit can be called many things but 'cheap' isn't one of them.

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#47

Post by toomuchtodo »

Swenrekcah wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best capital improvements are the ones that you can obviate away through cheap behavioral or societal adjustments (just as the best line of code is the one you can remove or didn’t have to write).

These words aren't necessarily wrong, but quite irrelevant here, since Brexit can be called many things but 'cheap' isn't one of them.

Was more directed at COVID pushing remote work, negating the need to shuffle bodies around via public transit to do knowledge work. I agree Brexit has been an expensive, unnecessary shit show.

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#48

Post by QasimK »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #47
Swenrekcah wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These words aren't necessarily wrong, but quite irrelevant here, since Brexit can be called many things but 'cheap' isn't one of them.

Was more directed at COVID pushing remote work, negating the need to shuffle bodies around via public transit to do knowledge work. I agree Brexit has been an expensive, unnecessary shit show.

COVID has not been cheap either - it has cost hundreds of billions [0]. You could fund twenty crossrails for this amount of money.

[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/22/a-year-of-c...

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#49

Post by toomuchtodo »

QasimK wrote: post #48
toomuchtodo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was more directed at COVID pushing remote work, negating the need to shuffle bodies around via public transit to do knowledge work. I agree Brexit has been an expensive, unnecessary shit show.

COVID has not been cheap either - it has cost hundreds of billions [0]. You could fund twenty crossrails for this amount of money. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/22/a-year-of-c...

Brexit was a choice, while the fiscal, monetary, and societal response to COVID was necessary and unavoidable.

Re: London’s Crossrail Is a $21B Test of Virtual Modeling (2016)

#50

Post by Swenrekcah »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #47
Swenrekcah wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These words aren't necessarily wrong, but quite irrelevant here, since Brexit can be called many things but 'cheap' isn't one of them.

Was more directed at COVID pushing remote work, negating the need to shuffle bodies around via public transit to do knowledge work. I agree Brexit has been an expensive, unnecessary shit show.

Ah, makes sense. My bad.

Although I do believe there is a great future for public transit in coordination with lighter ‘last mile’ solutions simply because cars are way too bulky for cities.

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