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As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

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Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#31
post #29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great critique of the CSA, but it's not really legally relevant. No court would convict for possession of endogenous DMT, and then that would be the precedent. Or to put it more simply, you're innocent until proven guilty. Felon means conviction.

You're quibbling. I mean, I understand that legally , one has to obtain a conviction to refer to someone as a felon, but practically, that's not the case, not with activist DAs floating around, trying to make a name for themselves as "tough on crime".

Yeah, that's a fair point. But what I was getting at is that no one has ever been convicted for endogenous possession, and no one ever will, so in this case my point stands.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#32
I paid $32.68 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshiba laptop for $94.83 being delivered to our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a 46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get all this stuff, GrabCent.com

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#33

People complain about activist judges but I think a bigger problem is activist prosecuters who look to stretch the law to include targets that were not intended by the law. The biggest example of this that I can think of is the anti-hacking laws that are being made to charge people of simply using a web browser.

I think an even bigger problem recently is nonactivist bank regulators: the country would probably be much better off if Geithner had allowed Sheila Bair at the FDIC to wind up Citi, Wells, BoA, etc.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#34
post #17
post #14

I have no problem whatsoever with a law that criminalizes stealing arrowheads, or other artifacts, from archaeological sites. I have no problem with laws that prohibit poisoning water, dumping chemicals, killing endangered species, or other environmental crimes. So, if this is proliferation, please sign me up for more. I know that these things were not crimes fifty years ago, but we are better off now for having thes…

I hope you read more of the article than the first paragraph and realized they were not at an archeological site and did not steal any arrowheads, they were merely looking for them as a father and son hobby. No arrowheads were found, but the act of merely looking is criminal, which they were not aware of.

I value your contribution to this discussion, but you might have missed this part of the article: "Wendy Olson, the U.S. Attorney for Idaho, said the men were on an archeological site that was 13,000 years old. "Folks do need to pay attention to where they are," she said."

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

great vids. the often overlooked flip-side is that cops Don't Like uncooperative people, so you could save yourself a pricey court appearance by cooperating when innocent.

You can assert your rights simply and clearly. It takes a certain amount of cahones, but you'll generally find that the cops will respect it. A pricey court appearance beats a conviction in my book. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/430/v...

True story: traffic cop pulls me over, turns out im doing something wrong and he could have me towed. cop asks to search my car for drugs and weapons. "Do I have the right to refuse this search?" Cop responds that I do, but heavily implies that he will have me towed if I refuse. I consented, he found no drugs or guns, I was allowed to drive away.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#36

People complain about activist judges but I think a bigger problem is activist prosecuters who look to stretch the law to include targets that were not intended by the law. The biggest example of this that I can think of is the anti-hacking laws that are being made to charge people of simply using a web browser.

I found the article weird in that respect. None of these laws seem particularly odious -- the ones that seem unjust could have been avoided by prosecuters using their discretion.

Also, I'm amused by an article about injustices in the criminal system where everyone pictured is a well-off white man.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#37
post #9

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor…

I'm probably going overboard by responding to both the Rand fanboy quotes, but here goes.

There's no way to rule innocent men.

Yes, there is, to the extent that that rule is legitimate. Usually, just powers arise from the consent of the governed. For example, sane people pay taxes because they understand that they have need of the canonical services of roads, fire service, police, the military, and the like.

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals.

This typical Rand drivel sounds good on the surface, but either doesn't actually mean anything or is outright wrong. If it just means that "enforcement only comes in to play when an infraction is suspected," then it's a tautology. If it means that the government doesn't also do things like establish air traffic control, a consistent system of laws for the roads, and establish bright lines like ages of consent and whatnot, then it's clearly just wrong. On a factual level. A lie or an omission. Unworthy of a "philosopher."

One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.

In very few systems, and especially in the instant case of the American legal system, does "[o]ne" declare anything to be a crime. I often wonder where Randians actually live, or what their connection to political reality is. Have they not taken even a grade-school level class in civics? Oh, I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill, anyone?

But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers.

And the whole thing collapses on itself, ironically, in a fit of internal logical inconsistency coming from the Prophetess of Logic herself, Ayn Rand. Laws "pass" in a democratic system. Again, "[o]ne" cannot even do it. One can only decree. "Passing" is a democratic concept pertaining to the outcome of a vote. It seems like a nitpick, I know, but remember who was cited. This is Ayn "A is A" Rand, who thinks that all of human nature can be derived from the laws of logic, one of which she exclusively calls out, the Law of Non-Contradiction.

Finally, this it's "impossible for men to live without breaking laws" thing is really really weird when compared against reality. There are tons of laws on the books that just go unenforced because law enforcement and the judicial system possess the very reasoning powers that Rand so often wants to remove from them. Remember when Taggart shot the guard near the end of Atlas Shrugged? Rand justified that for the reader by dehumanizing the guard as an unthinking automaton. Well, why aren't these unthinking automatons enforcing laws about the size of switch with which you can beat your wife? Why aren't they enforcing the laws in Washington state that make it literally impossible to get a motorcycle endorsement? (You have to take the class to get the endorsement, but you need the endorsement to take the class.) Because they're not unthinking automatons. And the very fact that they aren't allows the other glaring contradiction to this impossible-to-live-legally trope: precisely those impossible-to-follow laws exist, and they don't get enforced for pragmatic reasons. Perhaps this is the real reason for Rand's oft-stated hatred for pragmatism; It's actual effects wholly invalidate her stupid little "philosophy".

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can assert your rights simply and clearly. It takes a certain amount of cahones, but you'll generally find that the cops will respect it. A pricey court appearance beats a conviction in my book. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/430/v...

True story: traffic cop pulls me over, turns out im doing something wrong and he could have me towed. cop asks to search my car for drugs and weapons. "Do I have the right to refuse this search?" Cop responds that I do, but heavily implies that he will have me towed if I refuse. I consented, he found no drugs or guns, I was allowed to drive away.

True story: I was driving home after a long day out with friends (hiking with some, dinner with another). Started feeling very sleepy, pulled off the freeway to take a nap. Woke with a flashlight in my face and highway patrol knocking on my window.

Exited the car, locking it. Identified myself and presented ID. Refused consent to search the vehicle: "I don't consent to any search". Officer implied strongly that he could get a warrant (it's around midnight). "You do what you've got to do, I don't consent to a search".

Got breathalyzed (I could have refused this but that would have required a trip for a blood draw), which was clean (hadn't consumed any alcohol for hours). Eventually allowed to go on my way.

Later realized I had a couple of prescription painkiller pills given by a friend (for severe pain I was experiencing at the time) which probably wouldn't have been a good thing to turn up in a search. The This American Life drug court segment relates a story that could have been very similar to mine.

You have rights. But only if you assert them.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#39
post #34
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you read more of the article than the first paragraph and realized they were not at an archeological site and did not steal any arrowheads, they were merely looking for them as a father and son hobby. No arrowheads were found, but the act of merely looking is criminal, which they were not aware of.

I value your contribution to this discussion, but you might have missed this part of the article: "Wendy Olson, the U.S. Attorney for Idaho, said the men were on an archeological site that was 13,000 years old. "Folks do need to pay attention to where they are," she said."

Thanks for pointing that out, it's a reasonable concern. That is indeed the US Attorney's argument.

Just to clarify, it is not necessary to be on a recognized archeological site to be illegal, intending to collect artifacts on federal land is a crime whether a recognized archeological site or not.

But in this case they were in camping in "Salmon River Canyon, near the mouth of Graves Creek, which is in Idaho County" on land "administered by the Bureau of Land Management".

Photos of Graves Creek: http://www.nww.usace.army.mil/dpn/f616a.htm

It's not a recognized archaeological site beyond the interpretation that every location in the US is an archaeological site.

To be sure, there are arrowheads and/or evidence of human habitation on nearly every square mile of this continent. Just having the possibility of arrowheads doesn't make something a real archaeological site unless we bend the definition so far as to not have any meaning.

-- UPDATE --

To save time, I'll now provide a rebuttal to my own argument. Here's the BLM site on archaeological research in the area: http://www.blm.gov/id/st/en/fo/cottonwood/lower_salmon_river...

They cited that page to justify the claim it was an archaeological site in the article about the prosecution: http://www.blm.gov/id/st/en/info/newsroom/2009/june/archaeol...

Eh, OK, I agree with you!

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#40
Roscoe Howard, the former U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, argues that the system "isn't broken."

The US, the "Land of the Free", has a per capita prison population that it 5-10 times greater than any of it's first-world colleagues. The system is broken.

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