Market cap today: 4.5 billion. Just amazing.
Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
381–390 of 533 posts
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#382Nikola is one of Crystal lang largest sponsors[0]. I wonder if this is going to have repercussions. It's no fault of the Crystal community but might cast a shadow nevertheless. [0] https://crystal-lang.org/sponsors/
I see Mozilla always complaining about privacy matters and violations of its largest partner, critiquing the very hand that feeds them and they still take in the money that keeps them alive and accounts for 80% of their entire revenues YoY. That partner is Google, the anti-privacy company that stands against what Mozilla is fighting for and supporting (and also funds many other open-source projects). Nothing has happ…
80% of their revenues, but probably 200-300% percent of their profits. Google just hands them an enormous amount of money, regularly, for nothing but a token in return, and everything else they do fails.
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
The reservation page is up, they are talking delivery in 2022.
Like they took delivery in 2019? And in 2022 it will be 2024. And you will continue to think that doesn't matter. If deadlines don't matter why can't Nikola claim the same thing? "It doesn't work yet, but it will?"
Because Tesla did not demonstrate fake trucks to get funding or take orders. The prototypes are not making materially false implications. Tesla does have the technology to make electric trucks, however bad they may be compared to Nikola which had a rolling shell.
Tesla and Musk do many bad things, but I'm sure if their truck was just a shell - they'd be in deep trouble too.
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Were it a private company, like most startups at this stage tend to be, these lies would not have been securities fraud, I don't think. Theranos has entered the chat Private placements are still securities.
That is exactly what I was thinking. Elizabeth Holmes. I think even if you are a private company, lying is still a type of fraud. And private companies still have shareholders. Just because they are not public companies doesn't mean they can just lie to their shareholders, although perhaps it is more difficult to prove? The only area that I can think of where you can get away with lying about an industry or asset is…
What is lying, then? Startups very frequently pitch the "best version of themselves" to potential investors, it's (in my understanding) extremely common.
The problem with Theranos and now Nikola is that the industries they're doing it in have very specific laws that you can violate just by speaking/writing. That isn't usually the case with startups, and so when one founder stretches the truth about how far along their SaaS platform is and it's fine, Nikola rolls a car down a hill and their CEO gets indicted.
I just think there are some habits that come out of SV in particular that are fine within that bubble, almost expected really, but come out not looking very good if you try to apply that behavior/logic to a more scrutinized part of the market.
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Not irrelevant - this is the comparison we're talking about the nature of the difference between Trevor Milton and Elon Musk. If you ignore contradictory evidence because it doesn't support your position that's just cherry picking. What difference? Unless of course, the case of Tesla's deceptive advertising of its beta FSD system putting the lives of drivers at risk and killing them or others [0] is 'far more serio…
You claimed deceptive advertising - now you’re switching to a different argument about safety and risk, which I think is also wrong. None of your stuff is in good faith though so there’s no point to more discussion.
> You claimed deceptive advertising - now you’re switching to a different argument about safety and risk, which I think is also wrong.
It is both as I have always said. So you think it's worth putting the lives of other drivers at risk whilst using beta software that was deceptively advertised as "Full Self Driving" (FSD) by Tesla Inc. even when it is shown to be still not ready, than a company (Nikola Motors Corp.) and their CEO that is also deceptively advertising their entire products and technologies to investors?
What is the difference exactly on the lies and fraudulent claims made by both of them? There are none.
So your claim that:
> Elon Musk is obviously different. [0]
Is false. There are no exceptions.
Perhaps the only difference is that one involves a risk of death which that is irreversible and 'far more serious' than the other which I believe that both companies and their CEOs should be under serious investigation over their claims in their products.
Read all the comments again, since at this point you have ignored all of them since you are still defending the indefensible.
> None of your stuff is in good faith though so there’s no point to more discussion.
Are you now able to admit that the advertising of the FSD system and the fact that it is no where near 'Full Self Driving' capability which was bought in by Tesla customers also does not work or function as advertised?
On top of that, using a beta product that may get confused of malfunction poses a serious risk of death and has killed drivers or other passengers in the past, needs to be under through serious investigation by the regulators?
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
As you are probably aware, buyout offers are routinely front run on the street by insiders. Ie, folks in the know get in early and book nice gains. So some folks actually liked hearing direct from CEO on what they were thinking. His twitter post was clear, he was "considering" taking TSLA private. His blog post on the rationale for his potential move is here: https://www.tesla.com/blog/taking-tesla-private Anyone who…
> His twitter post was clear, he was "considering" taking TSLA private. $420 funding secure indicates he already had financing ready. Why has this mystery funder never materialized. > Anyone who bought in at this news would have been buying in for This is hugely problematic as a response. Elon Musk's behavior is unethical whether Tesla stock went up or down. The stock price should not be used as justification for pre…
No one has been confused I don't think. I saw the considering the $420 buyout, I took it to mean just that.
The short sellers around tesla have been pathetic. Note I don't own any tesla stock, but the short seller hype train is just ridiculous around tesla. How there has been no action there is mind boggling.
He's a crazy guy willing to take crazy risks - look at SpaceX -> they are operating COMPLETELY outside all norms.
Despite these "huge crimes" - no prosecutor anywhere is prosecuting. The SEC efforts basically fell pretty flat - their contempt attempts also fell flat.
The conflicts with solar city were crazy - they were also public. I thought it was a terrible deal - but that was public too. If you think Elon is bad for tesla and you own stock vote him out by running your own board slate. But he has a vision for a fully integrated solar and powerwall type product no barriers. You get an app, the sun charges the battery. They had and have ideas around charging cars mixed into that. Not sure if it's a good idea - plenty of competitors coming for Tesla, but they may be able to deliver something here with their solar / energy AND car companies. And the trend is towards this type of integration - so he gets to take a crack at it.
And a heads up, if these solar city folks win their case - guess who is going to get the money. Yes, TESLA! I've followed the case a bit. Not super impressive (aside from the plaintiffs attorneys vomiting in court! What was going on!).
Importantly, you are Elon, you own 22% of two companies - Tesla and SolarCity with highly overlapping missions. You want to integrate solar / energy / cars. I mean, what would YOU do. Go do a deal with some company in China the way others have tried? These folks saying it's such a bad idea / deal - what was their much better proposal? Elon already knew the Solarcity board and management etc etc. I really am curious what was the amazingly better option to get where Elon wanted to go. Easy to criticize, harder (much) to do.
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#387Earlier quoted context omitted.
Any good stories you can share?
He told us he has just cashed out of an alarm company for $1M when he engaged us. Turns out that was typical Trevor hype... he had gotten nowhere near that amount. Would sometimes pay his invoices with stacks of $50 American Express prepaid cards. Drove my bookkeeper bananas. I assume the reason was rewards related. His claims for traffic on his Upillar platform were ludicrous; made out of whole cloth. Hired Glenn Be…
That’s hilarious! So Trevor is like a real-life Erlich Bachman from Silicon Valley, complete with an Aviato car. Meanwhile he’s churning prepaid cards to farm a few dollars per card.
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it doesn't. Stop claiming this nonsense. It is totally irrelevant for Tesla financials.
Tesla's Q1 operating profit of $594M was slightly less than the sum of their $101M Bitcoin profit and the $518M regulatory credits they received.
My goodness, the regulatory credits meme once again. How are those short shorts feeling by the way?
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They also went after him for a lot of other stuff. Like lying about a buyout offer for his company. Which he received a incredibly small punishment for.
Call me pessimistic, but my thoughts on the matter is that TSLA and by association Musk have become too big to fail. Anything that would take Musk down would harm a lot of very wealthy investors.
There are people looking to take him down along with SpaceX / Tesla etc. Others are glad to have someone powering ahead relative to competition in places like China etc. We will see how it plays out.
Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
One thing you’re ignoring is that investment doesn’t occur in the abstract. It’s literally an investment in the company, and it’s not just a bet on future results it actually can and does change the outcome. For example GME and AMC were able to wipe out their debt snd get a bunch of cash in the door to run their business with via all this retail investment. It’s quite possible having that money will change their stor…
Are you familiar with Mogdilani-Miller? Being able to pay off debt does not increase the value of equity. The capital structure has changed but that makes no difference for the actual value of the business (which is determined by cash flows). And, ofc, it is massively value-dilutive in practice for shareholders. Debt is extremely cheap and equity is expensive. And, in this case, massive amounts of value have been des…
It’s not that deep.
The basic premise I’m putting forward, which is that in general investing in an company might have the potential to help that company succeed, is utterly trivial and obvious.
Also trivial and obvious is that fact that an excessive debt burden can cripple and kill a company that might have otherwise succeeded.
There is indeed subtlety to this, needless to say. But basic observation is essentially unarguable: when a whole ton of people decide to buy stock in a company it affects that company’s prospects.