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Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

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Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#371
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is a troll. The Tesla semi is not “barely functional”. They have been spotted driving all over the place and doing real world testing on actual highways and in cold weather. Production was already to be started except for a shortage of battery cells (due to the extreme popularity of their existing cars and powerwalls/megapacks) which they are working to remedy.

> This person is a troll. That's a baseless accusation, where are the mods? > They have been spotted driving all over the place and doing real world testing on actual highways and in cold weather. Prototypes, with zero evidence they can achieve the claimed specifications. If you know otherwise, please, show us all. They are dependent on 4680 cells, which do not exist. They don't even have a factory, and they claimed…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJ9WUciBVA seems pretty real

what's that about generics from China? I'd love a link

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#372
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the software that is called 'FSD' (Full Self Driving) doesn't actually mean what is says or was advertised then? There is no FSD today the capability you're paying for is a future update, it used to be entirely that - now they include some extra features under FSD that aren't in base autopilot (lane changes, etc.). They've always been pretty explicit about this - the language on the site today reads: > The curre…

> Not irrelevant - this is the comparison we're talking about the nature of the difference between Trevor Milton and Elon Musk. If you ignore contradictory evidence because it doesn't support your position that's just cherry picking. What difference? Unless of course, the case of Tesla's deceptive advertising of its beta FSD system putting the lives of drivers at risk and killing them or others [0] is 'far more serio…

You claimed deceptive advertising - now you’re switching to a different argument about safety and risk, which I think is also wrong. None of your stuff is in good faith though so there’s no point to more discussion.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#373
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FSD was advertised as paying for something that would come in the future So the software that is called 'FSD' (Full Self Driving) doesn't actually mean what is says or was advertised then? You're telling me that it doesn't mean 'Full Self Driving' or what was meant to be 'full Level 5 autonomy' which that was advertised for completion in 2019 and 2020? [0] We are in 2021. Where are the robotaxis then? [0] > If you…

> So the software that is called 'FSD' (Full Self Driving) doesn't actually mean what is says or was advertised then? There is no FSD today the capability you're paying for is a future update, it used to be entirely that - now they include some extra features under FSD that aren't in base autopilot (lane changes, etc.). They've always been pretty explicit about this - the language on the site today reads: > The curre…

I am dumbfounded how you don't find it bothersome to call it Full-Self Driving today when they are not even remotely close to creating FSD.

FDS is beyond a difficult problem. The margin of error so low that you simply don't get there by tweaking some settings.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#374
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What due diligence is reasonably required of GM, if the deal is obviously a win or wash for them, no matter what happens at NKLA?

Some analysis that they knew how scammy it was and proceeded because of an analysis it was worth it in other ways? If all there is, is a memo saying ‘just buy it, and don’t look too hard’, or it looks like they fell for an obvious scam, then the execs can be on the hook for negligence to the shareholders

I think its more sinister then that unfortunatly. The GM deal was concocted to give almost zero risk to GM but crucially it was intended to give new investors confidence that a major player looked at NKLA and did due diligence.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#375
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to run pump and dumps in crypto with impunity definitely helps.

No it doesn't. Stop claiming this nonsense. It is totally irrelevant for Tesla financials.

Tesla's Q1 operating profit of $594M was slightly less than the sum of their $101M Bitcoin profit and the $518M regulatory credits they received.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#376
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also went after him for a lot of other stuff. Like lying about a buyout offer for his company. Which he received a incredibly small punishment for.

As you are probably aware, buyout offers are routinely front run on the street by insiders. Ie, folks in the know get in early and book nice gains. So some folks actually liked hearing direct from CEO on what they were thinking. His twitter post was clear, he was "considering" taking TSLA private. His blog post on the rationale for his potential move is here: https://www.tesla.com/blog/taking-tesla-private Anyone who…

> His twitter post was clear, he was "considering" taking TSLA private.

$420 funding secure indicates he already had financing ready. Why has this mystery funder never materialized.

> Anyone who bought in at this news would have been buying in for This is hugely problematic as a response. Elon Musk's behavior is unethical whether Tesla stock went up or down. The stock price should not be used as justification for previous lies. If we accept that, then we accept markets where people can gamble on a lie and things are fine if their gamble works out. That's not the business culture I want to create. People should be honest about risks so that they can be properly evaluated.

> The problem the SEC has had in trying to charge him is that folks feel like the SEC really ignore some of the clear scam behavior by big players.

Elon Musk is literally the second biggest player! Ignoring his malfeasance creates more people willing to emulate him.

> Fail to deliver? No issue. Broker bad behavior and theft? Light FINRA slaps on the wrist. Complaints about Madoff? Investigate the complainers. CEO talking about potential to take a company private publically - all out WAR by SEC!

You won't find me giving a kind word to the SEC's currently regulatory practices, but we need to recognize that corporate culture is made from examples. When someone like Elon Musk publicly flouts all responsible corporate behavior, and doesn't have an example made of him, then that is going to breed people willing to make the exact same decisions.

> He said he is considering something. It was not definite.

"Funding secured" is definite.

> Yes - people want to make this into a huge crime. But he explained in his tweets pretty transparently to most what his thinking was.

It is a huge crime. In the middle of trading, he decided to fraudulently claim he had a buyout offer for his company. That screws over not just short sellers, but any one who had calls above the $420 a share price. There is no universe where that is healthy for our markets.

> if you read between lines - the contempt court case got a bit of an eye roll from the judge involved.

He's currently in a court case for his buyout of Solar City, where he announced a fake product, used it as reasoning for his one public company to buy a company that he, his brother, and his cousin's had the largest stake in, and he, his brother, and his other companies (Tesla and SpaceX) were the largest bondholders in. This is a cartoonish set of conflicts of interest here. But apparently that shouldn't matter, because "stock price."

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#377
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marketing matters a lot, and NKLA was quite popular or even infamous there. A known brand does have value, even according to 'real economics'. Most investors seem to have been valuing that aspect and completely discounting the engineering/tech.

It helps me to think in terms of particles and waves. A person is a particle and their influence is a wave. I’m not so sure light is both, but our cognition enables seeing it as both. Mirror neurons fire when we engage a behavior or see it performed. Our culture is built upon a meme repeating protectionist like chants for the rich, deflation for the middle class, and stagnation of the poor. Repeat, fire mirror neuron…

People choose to exchange money for goods and services that improve their life. Rich people generally became rich by directly or indirectly providing goods and services that improved the lives of a great many people.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I browse through a lot of niche investing social media groups. One of the more liked posts on a Nikola investment group was, "If "they" cared about the future, the earth and the renewable energy issue, they would let whatever Trevor did slide." Surprisingly, I saw similar posts about Musk on the Thailand rescuer tweet and the price too high tweet. You are not betting against the fundamentals or the realities of the s…

I'm not sure creating a multibillion dollar vaporware fraud shell company and being a dick on Twitter are comparable sins.

Lets see some of the quotes and think if we could get away with it...

Aug 7, 2018 "Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured." Elon Musk

Aug 7, 2018 "Shareholders could either to sell at 420 or hold shares & go private"

After paying 20 million dollar fine referring to the Securities and Exchange Commission tweets:

"Just want to that the Shortseller Enrichment Commission is doing incredible work," "And the name change is so on point!"

2018

"I want to be clear: I do not respect the SEC, I do not respect them,"

2019

“By the middle of next year, we’ll have over a million Tesla cars on the road with full self-driving hardware, feature complete, at a reliability level that we would consider that no one needs to pay attention,”

October 21, 2019

"Next year for sure, we will have over a million robotaxis on the road," "The fleet wakes up with an over-the-air update. That's all it takes."

2020

"All Tesla cars right now have everything necessary for self-driving available today. All you need to do is improve the software."

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the software that is called 'FSD' (Full Self Driving) doesn't actually mean what is says or was advertised then? There is no FSD today the capability you're paying for is a future update, it used to be entirely that - now they include some extra features under FSD that aren't in base autopilot (lane changes, etc.). They've always been pretty explicit about this - the language on the site today reads: > The curre…

I am dumbfounded how you don't find it bothersome to call it Full-Self Driving today when they are not even remotely close to creating FSD. FDS is beyond a difficult problem. The margin of error so low that you simply don't get there by tweaking some settings.

They're not just 'tweaking some settings': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bOwQdCJrc

What they have today isn't FSD (which they state explicitly), but I'm happy to give them extra money early given the work they're doing on the chance that it works in the future. I think they have the best chance of success of actually shipping something real.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#380
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FSD was advertised as paying for something that would come in the future So the software that is called 'FSD' (Full Self Driving) doesn't actually mean what is says or was advertised then? You're telling me that it doesn't mean 'Full Self Driving' or what was meant to be 'full Level 5 autonomy' which that was advertised for completion in 2019 and 2020? [0] We are in 2021. Where are the robotaxis then? [0] > If you…

> So both Elon Musk or Trevor Milton are not billionaires? So I am not allowed to say they are billionaires? What wrong with that? It is a fact, not 'some political element'. You're telling others to stay on point yet your pointing out that Musk and Milton are billionaires is just as much beside the point.

Context:

> Elon Musk is obviously different. [0]

> Con-artists will mimic the people that actually know their shit. [1]

When it comes to how the FSD system works, should I listen to a billionaire CEO or multiple leading experts in the field?

Unfortunately, the influence of any billionaire CEO (especially one with a rare cult of personality) is far more greater than someone who is simply an 'expert' or 'researcher' in their field. I would rather verify the claims of the CEO to check if what they are claiming doesn't conflict with what the experts and researchers are showing.

Otherwise, the customers will trust anything they say and if not done with proper research, well it goes straight back to [1].

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27998552

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27999706

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