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Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

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Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#131

Post by perl4ever »

porknubbins wrote: post #100
perl4ever wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of insight to varying degrees is a well-known feature, but not always the case. Having insight doesn't imply at all a lack of symptoms. It's possible to be aware, but not be able to correct errors in real time. Someone with paranoia is highly sensitive to coincidences, and may have great difficulty blocking out elaborate theories regarding them which seem to spontaneously arise, as well as an intense fear reacti…

I have always wondered why if someone with good logical reasoning skills got schizophrenia they clould not reason their way to seeing their delusions for what they are. For example (real example I heard) if I think everyone who looks at my eyes is from the government and tracking me on my walk to the park- there simply is no agency that could field and coordinate that many undercover agents nor surreptitiously replac…

>there simply is no agency that could field and coordinate that many undercover agents nor surreptitiously replace all normal people on my route

It's entirely possible that a person can reason like that and reject some theories, and it may even be comforting to see and feel things that are easily dismissed.

However, paranoia does not necessarily involve things that are so clearly absurd, even to a healthy observer. You're talking about one end of a distribution, even for a given person, and an almost infinite number of possibilities are in a gray area.

It's possible to observe patterns of coincidence without a particular theory, and rejecting a theory or switching to a different one doesn't make observations go away.

Those observations can be mistaken or selective, but that's a separate issue.

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#132

Post by iammisc »

Loeffelmann wrote: post #126
drew1492 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true, or partially true at best. As far as I'm aware, current consensus is that psychedelics are not a causative agent in psychosis or schizophrenia in the absence of predisposing risk factors. 0.5-1% of the population will develop schizophrenia, and for these susceptible individuals, a psychedelic trip can be the event that triggers the full-blown disorder. But so can any other significant psychological…

My depersonalisation disorder started after an LSD trip. Was it really that drug that did it to me or was it always going to happen? I don't know but even so I've never gotten any of the benefits that psychedelics advocates talk about. For me it was just fun and that's it. I still absolutely hate what the drug did to me and I wish I had never taken it but comments like yours convinced me. I feel like the constant adv…

Exactly... We're expecting those affected negatively by the drug to come out in force to combat the LSD advocates. How can this be possible? Those given psychoses by these drugs end up in mental institutions, at best, on the streets at worst. They are in no position to advocate for themselves.

The truth is the drug is a mixed bag. Some people take it and may only report benefits. However, some people take it and develop intense psychological disorders they may not have ever developed otherwise. Simply saying 'oh they were pre-disposed' is hardly an excuse. Maybe they were pre-disposed, but not enough to develop it without an intense trigger event, like an LSD trip.

Here's a similar situation. Auto-immune disease runs in my family. My older cousin has vitiligo. My brother didn't have it, but then one day he suffered a severe burn. A few weeks later, he started developing vitiligo. Burns and other severe events are known to trigger vitiligo. Had he simply avoided it, he would likely never have developed vitiligo. But alas he did.

My uncle has schizophrenia. I see how it can affect him and the family negatively. You can't put me within 10 feet of LSD. Sorry, I'm just not interested. The risk of me developing actual schizophrenia is simply not one I'd be willing to take, but most LSD advocates would not even mention this, instead mentioning the silly pleasure it brings them. Sorry, no amount of poetic creativity, artistic brilliance, or musical talent is going to convince me that a non-zero risk of beginning to hear random voices is good.

The negative symptoms are so bad, that the positive ones, which are basically momentary pleasure, are simply not worth it being tolerated as a self-medicated drug. Even the supposed medical benefits deserve intense scrutiny given how dangerous the drug can be.

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#133

Post by BizarroLand »

ImuMotive wrote: post #7
01100011 wrote: post #3

This is a bit disturbing to read as someone who had perceptual distortions in my late teens. I always attributed it to HPPD after using LSD around 15 years old. Now I'm not so sure.

I get a world tilting thing maybe once a year. Usually while falling asleep. I also sometimes get this weird perceptual thing where objects look huge, again, normally while in a dark room. I've also had odd sensations that accompany these perceptual changes. All of these occur very rarely. Like I said, maybe twice a year, but closer to once per year. I can't find it now, but I had learned about seizure activity and h…

Back when I smoked cigarettes I could tell I had smoked to much because I would get Alice in Wonderland Syndrome. I would feel like my bed was rotating in the world, my head would feel like it was too big for the room or that my feet would be dozens of meters away from me.

I thought I was going crazy for a while until I found out what it was.

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#134

Post by BizarroLand »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #44
anyfoo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate a bit? I don't remember hallucinating when growing up[1], so I'm interested what this would look like. I don't doubt that it may still be common without everyone experiencing it. [1] Or ever, really, unless fever dreams when being really sick count. Though, without any reference point to compare to, they really seemed more like intense dreams.

I consider myself to be a very mentally-stable person, but I have encountered occasional hallucination-like experiences. They're very brief, and my brain seems to correct itself retroactively , which makes them somewhat difficult to notice. For example, a soft noise could be vividly interpreted as someone calling my name, but when it becomes apparent that this didn't happen, my brain files the experience as "probably…

I've had events in deep meditation where I hear things as though they were actually audible and not just a memory of sound or see things as though my eyes were seeing them and not visually remembering them.

They always scared me even though the audible events would be something simple like a "Hello!" or like, a bottle cap opening or a bit of music and the visual events would be like, a match striking or a bit of fire.

I am not sure what causes this transition of perception. Some people say its your brain releasing DMT, some say it's activation of your parasympatheic nervous system. I don't know for sure, but I don't think it is anything to be afraid of.

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#135

Post by BizarroLand »

denton-scratch wrote: post #106
iammisc wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My insight is that psychiatrists, and most doctors, are themselves mentally ill. The vast majority think too highly of themselves. Many think so highly of themselves they do not listen to patients because they view them as less capable. The moment something escapes their understanding, it is labeled as a disease. It's almost the way the ancients would make up gods to explain phenomena they could not explain. IMO, sch…

> or whether he's just reacting in the normal human way to the pressures of life and his own experiences. R.D. Laing claimed that psychiatric disorders were a normal human reaction to a crazy world. In my youth, I was on-board with that analysis; but R.D. Laing was discredited, and I cam around to the view that bipolar and schizo were real illnesses, very debilitating, and that make the sufferer very unhappy; and tha…

If you were trapped and the only way to free yourself was to cut your arm off like that guy in 187 hours, any person could make that decision.

A sane person would verify that they are trapped, call for help, wait as long as possible in hopes of rescue, and then when it was all for naught and it came down to life or death, if they had decided they were going to live no matter what they could start cutting.

An insane person might also make that decision, but might make that decision without verifying that they are trapped first. Might make that decision in response to a feeling of being trapped, an internal one with no external verifiability.

The idea that psychotic people are sane people in a crazy world sounds poetic but doesn't hold up to examination. If you are trapped in a rushing river you can swim against it or give up and go with the flow, but psychotic people are trapped in the raging river of their perceptions and can only "go with the flow" under the effect of exogenous chemicals.

It's not a "sane reaction to a crazy world" to go crazy, going crazy is a helpless reaction to a crazy perception of the world.

It's not always forever though. I've heard of people who go crazy for a while and then return to normal, or find an outlet for it that allows them to adapt and integrate. Maybe everyone should go a little crazy every once in a while just to shake things up a bit.

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#136

Post by perl4ever »

mjreacher wrote: post #121
porknubbins wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always wondered why if someone with good logical reasoning skills got schizophrenia they clould not reason their way to seeing their delusions for what they are. For example (real example I heard) if I think everyone who looks at my eyes is from the government and tracking me on my walk to the park- there simply is no agency that could field and coordinate that many undercover agents nor surreptitiously replac…

I agree, two famous mathematicians who had severe mental illnesses come to mind, Kurt Gödel and John Nash. In fact there seems to be a link between the two (intelligence and predisposition to mental illnesses), see: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201707/the-mad-g...

>In fact there seems to be a link between the two (intelligence and predisposition to mental illnesses)

I don't think it's real. I attribute it to a selection effect.

Of all the people with mental illnesses it's necessarily the particularly smart or talented ones that you hear about.

The more of a handicap something is, the more extreme other abilities have to be to cancel out and produce a notable accomplishment or even an average, comfortable life.

People who aren't brilliant in some way, aren't going to be noticed, and have little to gain by sharing their experiences.

I used to volunteer for a mental health advocacy non-profit, and they had a poster listing all the famous people that supposedly had some sort of mental illness. I didn't find it inspirational, because I suspected on the one hand it was kind of reaching for many of them, and on the other, it had the unintentional implication to me, that if you aren't Einstein you can only pretend to be, or be nothing.

Society fixates on geniuses with mental illness for another reason - they are likely to be able to describe their inner life much better than the average person. But they might not be representative.

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#137

Post by denton-scratch »

BizarroLand wrote: post #135
denton-scratch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or whether he's just reacting in the normal human way to the pressures of life and his own experiences. R.D. Laing claimed that psychiatric disorders were a normal human reaction to a crazy world. In my youth, I was on-board with that analysis; but R.D. Laing was discredited, and I cam around to the view that bipolar and schizo were real illnesses, very debilitating, and that make the sufferer very unhappy; and tha…

If you were trapped and the only way to free yourself was to cut your arm off like that guy in 187 hours, any person could make that decision. A sane person would verify that they are trapped, call for help, wait as long as possible in hopes of rescue, and then when it was all for naught and it came down to life or death, if they had decided they were going to live no matter what they could start cutting. An insane p…

Well, the terms "sane" and "insane" aren't really very helpful. "Insane" could cover almost any unusual kind of experience or behaviour. "Sane" is equally flexible in meaning.

Psychosis is not a disease or condition; it's a symptom supporting the diagnosis of a wide variety of conditions, and is sometimes a direct result of childhood trauma, which can be susceptible to complete remission through therapy.

So you're right - it's not always forever.

Apparently some psychotherapists contend that all of those conditions characterised by psychosis are the result of childhood trauma. [citation needed]

Re: Perceptual distortions in late-teens predict psychotic symptoms in mid-life

#138

Post by BizarroLand »

denton-scratch wrote: post #137
BizarroLand wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were trapped and the only way to free yourself was to cut your arm off like that guy in 187 hours, any person could make that decision. A sane person would verify that they are trapped, call for help, wait as long as possible in hopes of rescue, and then when it was all for naught and it came down to life or death, if they had decided they were going to live no matter what they could start cutting. An insane p…

Well, the terms "sane" and "insane" aren't really very helpful. "Insane" could cover almost any unusual kind of experience or behaviour. "Sane" is equally flexible in meaning. Psychosis is not a disease or condition; it's a symptom supporting the diagnosis of a wide variety of conditions, and is sometimes a direct result of childhood trauma, which can be susceptible to complete remission through therapy. So you're ri…

I disagree that the terms aren't "very helpful" as in this case the context should have been sufficient for any adept English reader to comprehend the meaning of my post without digging into the individual etymology of the word choices I made.

Also, psychosis can be the temporary or permanent result of foreign chemicals, injury, or diseases damaging the brain directly such as untreated syphilis.

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