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Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

cnbc.com

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Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#141

Post by _c3bx »

H8crilA wrote: post #119
api wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the name screams transparent fraud, a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Weren't there VCs who put money into this? What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit?

Just "Copying Tesla" is not a fraud by a mile, the whole point of capitalism is that enterprises compete by offering alternative solutions[1]. It is actually surprising it took so long for someone to copy the "electric car company with Tesla characteristics", given the insanely attractive cost of equity capital that Tesla is enjoying. Matt Levine wrote a section on this, about how Elon said good-bye to earnings calls…

Whatever you think of them, the Tesla fanboys have been proven more right then wrong and the likes of Matt Levine (and Bloomberg) are just bitter at this point.

A lot of EV startups like NKLA are going to come and go but very few if any will be able to replicate Teslas success in the long term. Retail investors are not always stupid, many of the same Tesla investors have been shorting NKLA since it came on via a spac offering.

Personally I don’t always love everything Elon does but I view him in many ways as a modern day Edison. It’s always funny to me to go back and read stuff said about Edison while he was alive. I very much color my view of Musk by historical perspective and try not to get lost in present day minutia.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#142

Post by handmodel »

anyfactor wrote: post #135
raesene9 wrote: post #19

Interesting how even after this was announced, their market cap is over $5b ( https://www.google.com/finance/quote/NKLA:NASDAQ ) in the same ballpark as established car companies like Mazda ( https://www.google.com/finance/quote/MZDAF:OTCMKTS )

Well... remember the hertz saga?

Hertz got out of bankruptcy because they have a (somewhat) profitable business model and a lot of assets they sold off.

I don't think that applies here - at least not without massive growth that seems outside the realm of possibility.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#143

Post by rchaud »

chasebank wrote: post #30
dreyfan wrote: post #2

And yet NKLA still has a $5B market cap despite the entire company being 100% fraud. Amazing. [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/nkla

Older I get, more I realize the market is just a game of human psychology. Stocks, housing, crypto, etc. History says speculative 'investing' ends poorly but this time, who knows? If you happen to have the answer, I'm all ears.

Same here. Houses of cards can stay up as long as there are enough people who believe that it's not a house of cards.

No wonder we have a misinformation crisis. It works for politicians, crypto markets, meme stocks, regular stocks, you name it.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#144

Post by ajross »

sethd wrote: post #124
ajross wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla wasn't faking videos by rolling a nonfunctional truck down a hill. They're shipping almost a million cars a year now (looks to be like 850k in 2021 I think). Mine took me to Yellowstone a few weeks back. Now, sure, "overvalued" is a very reasonable argument. I'd even agree. That's not the kind of rhetoric that was deployed against the company and you know it. Which is why people didn't believe folks screaming t…

They had a video on their website for years (taken down very recently, I believe) that showed a FSD "self-driving" Tesla with the narrator saying something like "the driver is only present for legal reasons".

And again, people see arguments like this attempting to liken Tesla to a clearly fraudulent scam (the truck didn't even go!), and is it any wonder they threw up their hands and figured NKLA was a good bet?

Look, nitpick about FSD if you like (I bought it, FWIW -- 100% happy customer). But don't claim it's the same as faking a motor in a truck that didn't have one.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#145

Post by WJW »

pinewurst wrote: post #58
snarkypixel wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The father of value investing, Benjamin Graham, explained this concept by saying that in the short run, the market is like a voting machine--tallying up which firms are popular and unpopular. But in the long run, the market is like a weighing machine--assessing the substance of a company." Boring answer, but in the long-term, great businesses go up, whereas crappy businesses go bankrupt.

I think this was much more true in the long ago era of regulation, (mostly) autarky, and limited market info/trading barriers. I've looked at "Security Analysis" and it's very much a historical piece - railroads and (practically) buggy whips. Things change relatively faster these days. Yesterday, Kodak was the bluest of chips; today, pretty much a joke. Heck, look at Buffett in the last decade - I'll bet he fully Gra…

> just isn't worth the effort for the average ownership span.

There's no rule that says you need to hold stocks for the same average period that the rest of the market does. Analyzing securities and purchasing those that are undervalued is still an extremely profitable activity at many hedge funds and prop trading desks. The fact that the average investor is more FOMO-driven these days only makes sound analysis more valuable, just like playing poker with a drunk newbie will have higher variability but better expected value.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#147

Post by admax88q »

itsoktocry wrote: post #137
api wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the name screams transparent fraud, a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Weren't there VCs who put money into this? What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit?

> a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Nikola was building barely functional prototypes of their trucks years before Tesla was building barely functional Semi truck prototypes, for the record. > What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit? Fundamentally, what have they done that's so evil compared to, say, the multitu…

Well... Tesla actually sells real cars. Nikola so far looks little different than your average kickstarter that never delivers.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#148

Post by ineedasername »

Sebguer wrote: post #128
lordnacho wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Musk joined after it had been founded? Did he change the name?

No, Musk had literally nothing to do with the name, just a continuation of his myth as anything more than a guy with a lot of money.

a guy with a lot of money

Well, in the words of Batman when asked about his superpower, "I'm rich".

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#149

Post by rberg »

itsoktocry wrote: post #137
api wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the name screams transparent fraud, a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Weren't there VCs who put money into this? What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit?

> a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Nikola was building barely functional prototypes of their trucks years before Tesla was building barely functional Semi truck prototypes, for the record. > What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit? Fundamentally, what have they done that's so evil compared to, say, the multitu…

> Nikola was building barely functional prototypes of their trucks years before Tesla was building barely functional Semi truck prototypes, for the record.

If by "barely functional" you mean a metal skeleton on wheels that rolled down hills, then yes.

I'm not a shill for Tesla as they definitely have made very questionable claims in the past, but to claim that Nikola's semi is in any way similar to Tesla is a bit of a stretch.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#150

Post by Apocryphon »

ethbr0 wrote: post #87
pinewurst wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this was much more true in the long ago era of regulation, (mostly) autarky, and limited market info/trading barriers. I've looked at "Security Analysis" and it's very much a historical piece - railroads and (practically) buggy whips. Things change relatively faster these days. Yesterday, Kodak was the bluest of chips; today, pretty much a joke. Heck, look at Buffett in the last decade - I'll bet he fully Gra…

In times of plenty, where money flows and pools drives stock prices. In times of poverty, fundamentals drive stock prices. We've been in a time of plenty for a historically abnormally long period.

And the time of plenty is primarily driven by monetary policy, is it not?
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