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The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

kingsley.sh

191–200 of 294 posts

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#191
post #124

My first son spent a week in the NICU since he had to be on antibiotics, otherwise was fine. The hospital entered in my insurance card incorrectly so we were billed as uninsured. Turns out a week at the NICU for a healthy newborn is about $40,000! It took almost 2 years of back and forth with my insurance provider and the hospital to clear up that bill. The hospital kept sending to to debt collectors too which was pa…

> And to make it even more annoying, the hospital later changed it's policy on newborns on antibiotics - if they are otherwise healthy they don't need to stay in the NICU anymore. That sounds like a good policy change thou? Whilst I understand it must've been a grave ordeal to sort it out, I'd try to be glad for the families in similar situations now that wouldn't have to suffer from this any more instead of being an…

Yes, sorry I meant it would have made things much easier.

My heart goes out to all the families with babies in the NICU. It is beyond stressful and obviously the financial side is nothing compared to the wellbeing of your baby, but then it hits you a few months later.

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#193
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Israel we have public healthcare. I was born at week 32 and spent about 6 weeks in the NICU - everything was free. It's not always great and I do pay for private insurance in case I need something urgent - but everything emergency is absolutely covered. I believe it's this state in most developed places that are not the US?

Everything was not free, you just didn't pay directly for it while you were at the hospital. I don't understand why the word free always gets thrown around for country's with socialized medicine. You are paying for it.

Yes, we are paying for it, but given that governments negotiate prices for 100% of the population you get much better deals. Also, looking at taxation rates in the USA [1] vs. Europe [2] I don't see a difference big enough to justify the need for privatizing healthcare.

Furthermore, considering the Europeans also get basically free higher education (I payed around 20USD every 3 months to get my CS degree) I believe people living in the US got a far worse deal.

Finally, I don't blame US citizens as I have many colleagues and friends from across the pond, but I don't understand how you guys can tolerate the practice of "lobbying", which is what created your healthcare system.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe#/media/Fil...

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single payer healthcare systems in Europe were introduced a long time ago. Back then, politics was different, not least because of an imminent threat of the Soviet Bloc just around the corner and a need to answer it by "carrot", too, not just "stick". They are now status quo, but in another version of history, where such systems would have to be introduced today , I am not certain whether they could clear the politic…

Social security nets in Europe date back to time we used to have Emperors and Kings, before WW1. They are thus older than the USSR.

Bismarck mainly introduced some rudimentary social security to decrease worker support for socialist parties, so it was a reaction to socialism (albeit not directly the USSR) from the start. However before WW2 it was very limited in all countries (and much smaller scale than for example what's currently available in the US) before the 40's and 50's.

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single payer healthcare systems in Europe were introduced a long time ago. Back then, politics was different, not least because of an imminent threat of the Soviet Bloc just around the corner and a need to answer it by "carrot", too, not just "stick". They are now status quo, but in another version of history, where such systems would have to be introduced today , I am not certain whether they could clear the politic…

Social security nets in Europe date back to time we used to have Emperors and Kings, before WW1. They are thus older than the USSR.

Size matters and prior to the Cold War, social security nets were smallish, not least because the willingness to pay enough in taxes for their upkeep just wasn't there.

A difference between balloons and 747s.

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#196
First, it's not front-and-center; it's small at and the end. But, for those of you who may wish to do more other than comment:

> My wife and I are creating a charity to help bring awareness to the issue, to help sick children and their families, and to try improve the system in whatever way we can... we can use all the help with can get.

https://sterlingstrong.foundation

--

My daughter - at 7 (she's now 12, okay, and quite happy) - had a week-stay in the hospital with Kawasaki Disease. That was easily the worst week of my life. The cost of just the treatment, without the hospital room charges, etc., was $26,000 per dose, and she needed several rounds (3, IIRC). To make matters worse, she was allergic to the IVIg, which added additional complications and costs.

I'll be honest, I don't begrudge Doctors and nurses for being paid very well. I'm very good at my job and I expect to be well compensated. I also expect to be better compensated than most SWEs. I also expect SWEs who are better than I am to make more than I do.

Nor do I begrudge pharma companies for making some serious bank of some very expensive R&D (without that profit, would we even have a COVID vaccine?).

What does bother me is:

* Not having a say. When you're rushed to an ER, you can't price shop, you aren't thinking about insurance coverage (if you're conscious at all), and you can't refuse treatment if it's between "bankruptcy or death".

* I don't care how much info is out there on the internet. I will never, ever, ever have as much knowledge or experience related to my health care as my Dr. The best I can do is mention things I've read, thumb-in-the-wind, use my spidey senses, ask questions, or get a second opinion. But, at the end of the day, if my doctors say "you need X", they are the expert.

* A lot of prices insane due to (IMO) fallacious thinking. Yes, an MRI costs ~$1M. But, at $1000 per image, that sucker has (most likely) paid for itself in months. And the upkeep there-after is not $1M/year. The cost of a single scan should be a small percent of `upkeep + salary of those involved + modest yearly profit`. And that should be normalized and enforced across the entire country. If your hospital bought a better MRI or pays their employees more or have a better Dr interpreting the results? They charge more, but it's likely +/- $50 to the patient.

* Pharma prices are obviously a bit different. An individual pill may only cost them $2, but the first pill cost $500M. I do believe there should be supply and demand involved, but not in the typical way. I don't think "demand" - for medicine - should be based on need. For example, it should be illegal to price gouge someone who will die without your cure. However, if there are only 1000 people in the country with a particular disease, the "demand" doesn't exist to justify the cost of developing a cure. So, in that case, yes, I can understand charging more.

At the end of the day, I don't know that I want 100% universal coverage in the way Canada and Europe have it. I think what we have sucks, and I do think that coverage for children (say < 18) should be 100% covered. No parent should have to ever weigh the cost of their child's health. But, what the US does have is a system that does encourage doctors to be better, pharma to develop cures, etc. I think we have to be able to come up with something that is the best of both worlds.

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#197
post #47

This is the single reason why I could not live in the US. Each time I'd receive such bill, even when insured, I'd have a heart attack. How can people in the US think about anything else? It is so daunting and depressing from my point of view.

Probably because it’s not a real bill? These numbers bear no relation to money and nobody cares about them. The actual bill will be sent to insurance company, it will be 25-35% of this number, which is realistic given the cost of ultra modern equipment and high salaries for doctors. You will pay up to your maximum out of pocket, which is the real number you look at when shopping for a plan. Insurance for people who k…

If no one ever pays those bills why bother making these numbers up? Why not charge $5B? Or even $3T for that matter. Wouldn't it save everyone time and money to give the right price first? What is the purpose of this game?

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#198
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Israel we have public healthcare. I was born at week 32 and spent about 6 weeks in the NICU - everything was free. It's not always great and I do pay for private insurance in case I need something urgent - but everything emergency is absolutely covered. I believe it's this state in most developed places that are not the US?

Everything was not free, you just didn't pay directly for it while you were at the hospital. I don't understand why the word free always gets thrown around for country's with socialized medicine. You are paying for it.

The marginal cost to the patient for having that treatment was zero.

Meanwhile in the US the federal government spends 8% of GDP in tax payer funds on health care, for things like Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, etc. That's the same as the UK pays for health care, counting public and private expenditure combined. You are already paying the cost of an entire first world health care system in your federal taxes, and as an employee you and your company also still have to pay for your own private health care to actually get any treatment for yourself.

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#199
post #71

>sodium chloride 3 % nebu soln - qty 33@$104 total $3,432 Ouch. $104 for 3ml of saline that goes in a nebulizer. These are $0.16 if you buy them yourself ($16 for a pack of 100).

Maybe, just maybe it also includes the cost of actually administering it by a professional and? Scotty aint gonna beam it into ya… So once it’s negotiated down to $800 - it’s mostly labor of people involved in the process of taking it from pharmacy all the way inside you

Re: The cost of two weeks in an pediatric/infant ICU

#200
post #108
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how people can be so anti-universal healthcare in the US. Because I have zero faith that it will end up costing me less, and have a similar level of quality. I’m in tech. Combined HHI is something in the $200s. I pay about $300 per month for the entire family, $5K out of pocket max. So in a worst case scenario, let’s say healthcare costs me $9K per year. That’s what, 4% of my HHI? Will a universa…

> In the end, the poor will benefit greatly, the rich will carry on as usual, and people in the middle will get squeezed to death. While I disagree with nearly all of your post, I can find reason in the closing statement. I feel like this logic often evades the people asking for higher taxes to support their causes. It’s always the middle class that ends up paying for it. It creates a lot of resentment which is exact…

This is a systematic issue though, not an intent problem. Why do the middle class end up paying for it while the rich which own 40% of the assets don't? Due to lobbying and constantly electing politicians that are the same over and over again. The top 10% in the US own 70% of the assets. Just make the rich pay their taxes and the situation is resolved but we just keep gouging the middle class. Middle class should establish a fund to pay for lobbyists.
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