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Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

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Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#31

Post by spicymaki »

applepple wrote: post #20

The best way to stop global warning is through intervention by Central Banks. We need to create monetary policy which promotes incentives such as green energy and carbon capture technology. We also need to focus on improving battery technology to store excess energy for later use. We need to introduce innovation permits to restrict who is allowed to work on green tech so that we don't waste effort reinventing the whe…

To summarize, you are asking for a hero to come and to save us all with the power of meritocracy. This hero of yours is a PhD executive (from a top university) with access to venture capital and will lead other eminent people to produce world changing green technologies. The stock market will be the bar for which this hero is selected.

Companies that exploit the environment already have PhD executive types (from great schools) with great track records and amazing access to capital already. That is part of the problem. These eminent people have already decided that their personal wealth now is worth destroying our future.

These geniuses have already found a solution: rampant hedonism. Squeeze out every moment of pleasure while you still can and when time is up, jet over to New Zealand and hunker down while the world is engulfed in flames.

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#32

Post by tsimionescu »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #28
probably_wrong wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be suspicious abount anything published by "one of the Conservative think tanks funded to overturn the environmentalism of the 1960s, central to promoting climate change denial"[1]. The article is also clearly written in bad faith, with their so-called "counter-arguments" being a case of selectively choosing the information that supports their agenda and discarding everything else. Having said that: that arti…

No, more of an existence proof - the fact that people have been saying similar things since at least the 60’s should make us at least consider the possibility that the reason for the current warnings are similar to the reason for the previous warnings. Sure, maybe all those other warnings were in good faith and happened to be wrong, while the current warnings are also in good faith and might turn out to be correct. B…

More realistically, all of those warnings were actually quite right, and catastrophic global warming is well on its way, with almost all recent years being the hottest that we know of.

And about this Lomborg individual, I have no idea why anyone would listen to economists (people whose entire field is predicated on models which assume no major changes in the world) about what is necessary to combat catastrophic climate change - this what his think tank is all about.

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#33

Post by tsimionescu »

Aerroon wrote: post #19
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10

So, what item, that mr. Johnny Average uses daily, will now be banned (or made more expensive, by having to use barely "recyclable" materials), while nothing will be done about huge industries, and other countries that pollute a lot more? We,ve forbidden plastic bags and replaced them with reusable bags, which contain more plastic, or with cotton ones, tha thave to be reused 20.000times, to make it worth it, compared…

> while nothing will be done about huge industries But Johnny Average is what all those huge industries are ultimately there for. It all leads to production of goods for the people. Also, straws, plastic bags etc are actually a different issue. Those are about plastic pollution and have little to do with climate change. Also also, plastic pollution is not as big of an apparent problem in the West. Who knows with micr…

> But Johnny Average is what all those huge industries are ultimately there for. It all leads to production of goods for the people.

A lot of consumer behavior today is actually dictated by marketing, both through advertising (one of the largest industries in the world, whose purpose is entirely to distort rational consumption) or through other means (making sure you can sell things every year, by forcefully decommissioning older products, subscription models, cheap disposable parts). The average consumer can't afford to consume less, as almost everything is priced in such a way that they are forced to choose between huge investments in a durable object or continuous consumption of disposable crap - if the option of durable objects even exists.

> Also, straws, plastic bags etc are actually a different issue. Those are about plastic pollution and have little to do with climate change.

Sure, but the measures taken have been entirely irrelevant - causing slight problems for consumers, with 0 impact on the problem. Straws in particular were a massive PR stunt at a staggering scale.

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#35

Post by tsimionescu »

applepple wrote: post #20

The best way to stop global warning is through intervention by Central Banks. We need to create monetary policy which promotes incentives such as green energy and carbon capture technology. We also need to focus on improving battery technology to store excess energy for later use. We need to introduce innovation permits to restrict who is allowed to work on green tech so that we don't waste effort reinventing the whe…

First of all, to have any hope of of reducing global warming to mild proportions, energy usage will have to shrink, and so will the economy. We are simply too far advanced for any green energy solution and magical carbon sequestration to be able to help in time while also growing the global economy. Since we also want the global south to reach decent levels of development, the rich countries will have to accept even more shrinkage in their economy to accommodate rising consumption in the poorer ones - especially those hurt the most by the last few centuries of industrial progress.

This shrinkage will happen either way, due to the effects of global warming in theatter half of this century - today, we still have an option of doing it in a somewhat controlled manner. Tomorrow we will not.

Secondly, it is important to realize that it is theoretically impossible, not just technologically, to produce a battery that has the energy density of gasoline or most fossil fuels. The best realistic batteries we can think of are about 6MJ/kg, compared to 44-50 MJ/kg for hydrocarbons. This also means that transportation will become much more expensive in the coming decades, especially for goods - a battery powered cargo ship will transport ~10 times less cargo per journey than today, and so will an electrical truck (though the truck would likely be replaced by rail transport).

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#36

Post by forcry »

berikv wrote: post #29
vaylian wrote: post #2

Public link to paper: https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/advance-article/doi/10.1... But how do we make politicians aware of the seriousness?

Thanks for the question (which should be on the top, instead of the climate change deniers). Politicians are chosen by the citizens. So the question could be rephrased to “how do we make a big portion of the world aware of the seriousness?”. A web search for “how to convince your opponent” gives some great suggestions: ———————————————————— How to Convince Someone Ask them to share their thoughts. Match their type of…

> “how do we make a big portion of the world aware of the seriousness?”

A big portion of the world is pretty convinced that scientific community is full of shit. It might be the case that what they are saying might be true. But it is the boy that cried wolf at this point. But unlike the story, both the boy and the farmers could end up paying the price here.

Sad.

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#37

Post by Delk »

forcry wrote: post #36
berikv wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the question (which should be on the top, instead of the climate change deniers). Politicians are chosen by the citizens. So the question could be rephrased to “how do we make a big portion of the world aware of the seriousness?”. A web search for “how to convince your opponent” gives some great suggestions: ———————————————————— How to Convince Someone Ask them to share their thoughts. Match their type of…

> “how do we make a big portion of the world aware of the seriousness?” A big portion of the world is pretty convinced that scientific community is full of shit. It might be the case that what they are saying might be true. But it is the boy that cried wolf at this point. But unlike the story, both the boy and the farmers could end up paying the price here. Sad.

When has the scientific community really been crying wolf on environmental matters, on a large scale?

It can certainly feel like it has, with warnings about climate change and other ecological issues getting near-constant and having more and more visibility over the last couple of decades. But that's not really the scientific community calling wolf unless they were wrong. That's just people getting jaded. That doesn't mean the warnings have been wrong, it just means things have been going on for a long time with no solution.

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#38

Post by Delk »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #27
probably_wrong wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be suspicious abount anything published by "one of the Conservative think tanks funded to overturn the environmentalism of the 1960s, central to promoting climate change denial"[1]. The article is also clearly written in bad faith, with their so-called "counter-arguments" being a case of selectively choosing the information that supports their agenda and discarding everything else. Having said that: that arti…

> environmentalism of the 1960s, Unfortunately is was those very environmentalists who fought hard to stop the nuclear industry - and now it may be too late even with the explosion of green-technologies. > global warming I believe "climate change" is a better term to use these days.

Many environmentalists have been wrong about nuclear power and nuclear industry, and still are. That doesn't really make the opponents of environmentalism any more right.

If the opponents had focused on pointing out e.g. contradictory or irrational goals (e.g. nuclear power) or on genuinely questioning environmentalist claims without having an agenda of their own, you could say they were right in some cases. But that certainly doesn't describe most of the opponents of environmentalism, and definitely not the staunchest ones.

Re: Thousands of scientists warn climate tipping points ‘imminent’

#39

Post by forcry »

Delk wrote: post #37
forcry wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “how do we make a big portion of the world aware of the seriousness?” A big portion of the world is pretty convinced that scientific community is full of shit. It might be the case that what they are saying might be true. But it is the boy that cried wolf at this point. But unlike the story, both the boy and the farmers could end up paying the price here. Sad.

When has the scientific community really been crying wolf on environmental matters, on a large scale? It can certainly feel like it has, with warnings about climate change and other ecological issues getting near-constant and having more and more visibility over the last couple of decades. But that's not really the scientific community calling wolf unless they were wrong. That's just people getting jaded. That doesn'…

>When has the scientific community really been crying wolf on environmental matters, on a large scale?

Obviously I meant the scientific community in general. What is special about the "environmental matters", that make the community around it resistant to various politicisation or frauds?

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