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14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

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Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#21

Curious if anyone has made (or can make) a specific prediction (based on their climate models and assumptions) that can be verified in a timely manner and/or demonstrated in a repeatable experiment? Same question for any proposed "solution". Scientists make verifiable predictions and repeatable experiments based on causal hypotheses that are falsifiable. Politicians sell fear.

Way too many variables, we barely understand most of the mechanisms and how they're inter connected.

All we know is that we had a kind of stable ecosystem that's being disrupted by massive amount of CO2 and other gases being introduced in the system in a relatively short amount of time.

It's a slowish process but whatever the outcome is it doesn't look like we'll be able to reverse it

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#22
post #10

The main problem I have with how the issue of climate change is addressed is that there’s a huge disparity between how it’s described and how most authorities and luminaries have acted. If we are really on the brink of an existential crisis then why haven’t we been panic-building nuclear plants for decades? It was at least a temporary measure that would have bought us time while renewables and batteries caught up, bu…

The UK has heavily invested in new nuclear, Hinkley C, in a addition to offshore wind schemes.

If anything, I am surprised that climate change is being treated as seriously as it is in the UK, from both sides of our political spectrum.

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#23
post #2

I doubt they are wrong. Patterns that have held true during my life continue to unravel into something new, less familiar, desirable. The word will be a different kind of harmonious. May leave us in a very different place. I consider that outcome likely. All that said, warnings for close to a decade, often same number, 12 years, give or take. Heard that 6 plus years ago. I find it worrisome. There just is not a cente…

> Heard that 6 plus years ago. Heard it for decades. Fourteen years ago during his acceptance speech for the Nobel Peace Prize, Al Gore said the polar ice "could" be gone in 5 years. And such things have been said much longer before that.

The trend is there though: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/11/polar-ic...

It'll be there soon enough don't worry, 5 years, 25 years, 50 years, we'll be fuck regardless.

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#25
post #10

The main problem I have with how the issue of climate change is addressed is that there’s a huge disparity between how it’s described and how most authorities and luminaries have acted. If we are really on the brink of an existential crisis then why haven’t we been panic-building nuclear plants for decades? It was at least a temporary measure that would have bought us time while renewables and batteries caught up, bu…

To answer your questions, one need only look through the lens of incentives. What are people motivated to do?

> If we are really on the brink of an existential crisis then why haven’t we been panic-building nuclear plants for decades? ... nuclear has been widely panned amongst the environmental cadres for decades.

Making nuclear power into a bogeyman was the fossil fuel industries' first and most wildly successful astroturfing campaign. Co-opting the nascent environmentalist movement in the 1950s was a stroke of genius.

The incentives for fossil fuel miners are, I hope, obvious here.

The incentives for politicians are about keeping their jobs. Say things to stay visible in the media; do what your donors want. Those people in the future? They won't vote for me next election.

So yes, you are right in that politicians are saying things for political gain. Scientists and engineers make really bad politicians though; they tend to say what they believe to be true.

For politicians you could add incredulity, inertia, and distraction as well if you wish.

Incredulity: they lack the skills to evaluate what scientists say, so they rely on heuristics: the climate is stable. Inertia: meetings and more meetings. Distraction: there are always more visible and understandable "crises" (really, bike-shedding) that serve equally well or better.

And narcissism too: no-one honours people who prevented crises; they remember the hero of the hour. (See: the widespread belief that Y2K was a big hoax, rather than there being a day of gratitude that the world's financial systems didn't seize up for 18 months.)

My expected scenario is this: panic after a few really large weather events in the 2030s (say, 10 million or more dead in a prolonged heatwave, or a bunch of them, and/or simultaneous crop failure--down 40% or more--in 3 of the 5 major grain-growing regions of the world, twice in five years, and/or really serious flooding in major urban areas).

I expect to see the beginnings of serious government action in the 2040s. If I'm still alive.

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#26

1. climate change is real 2. it is really hard to do analysis on due to the large number of variables, uncertain assumptions and general complexity of the system 3. it will mess us the earth as we know it 4. humans have been making a large impact on climate change 5. it is also a natural process 6. being natural doesn't mean it won't fuck us up 7. people in power are not willing to act if the usual HN smart-ass clima…

Regarding 7, In my understanding, It is due to a high political price that no politician is willing to bite the bullet.

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#27
post #25
post #10

The main problem I have with how the issue of climate change is addressed is that there’s a huge disparity between how it’s described and how most authorities and luminaries have acted. If we are really on the brink of an existential crisis then why haven’t we been panic-building nuclear plants for decades? It was at least a temporary measure that would have bought us time while renewables and batteries caught up, bu…

To answer your questions, one need only look through the lens of incentives. What are people motivated to do? > If we are really on the brink of an existential crisis then why haven’t we been panic-building nuclear plants for decades? ... nuclear has been widely panned amongst the environmental cadres for decades. Making nuclear power into a bogeyman was the fossil fuel industries' first and most wildly successful as…

> Scientists and engineers make really bad politicians though; they tend to say what they believe to be true.

A very dangerous statement to generalise. Because it implies that someone with a political aptitude is incapable of these trades (ie become a scientist or engineer).

>the widespread belief that Y2K was a big hoax

It was a hoax where the marketing worked to sell Y2K compliant keyboards (and toasters probably).

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#28
Everyone knows it's too late, everyone except these 14,000 scientists. The reason why no one is doing anything is because it's pointless. If we have to face untold suffering, do it with grit, not like these spineless nannies. "Give me all your money or you're going to regret it!" Sounds like 14,000 highway robbers. Get rid of them and the problem will magically go away.

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#29
Why do we do nothing about climate change? We cannot. Why this deadlock? We live by Market Logic, which has no bearing on reality but is our symbolic reality because everyone acts as tho it is true, chasing admiration while simultaneously remaining completely blind to the entire process. Market Logic interdicts all human priorities. We need to think more; do less.

Re: 14,000 scientists warn of “untold suffering” if we fail to act on climate change

#30

1. climate change is real 2. it is really hard to do analysis on due to the large number of variables, uncertain assumptions and general complexity of the system 3. it will mess us the earth as we know it 4. humans have been making a large impact on climate change 5. it is also a natural process 6. being natural doesn't mean it won't fuck us up 7. people in power are not willing to act if the usual HN smart-ass clima…

Lots of people in power are willing to act. The problem is that in the US, the system is biased towards inaction. It takes an overwhelming majority to pass legislation. You have to control the House and 60% of the Senate and the Presidency, all at the same time. A minority willing to band together is nearly always able to prevent action.

Even when you get all of that, actually choosing an action on climate change isn't easy. It's a thorny, difficult problem. When you add in the difficulty of requiring absolute unanimity among that supermajority, it's no surprise that you can't get anything done, even if a majority of people recognize the problem and wish to act.

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