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Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

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Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#171

Post by Overton-Window »

mnowicki wrote: post #113
programmarchy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaky vaccines, like ones like the ones we have for COVID, also put evolutionary pressure on viruses. Anti-vaxxers are a convenient scapegoat, but the problem isn't that simple.

again, I got the vaccine and I'm not anti-vax, but why are people getting downvoted for making valid points just because they aren't following the popular narrative. Did this website become reddit? You can acknowledge someone made a decent point and incorporate it into your own views while still getting & encouraging vaccines - engaging in honest discussion will do more to prevent creating more anti-vaxxers than igno…

Reddit was just a bellwether. Honest and curious discussion no longer exists. You either repeat party lines or are labeled a deplorable and should be banned from society.

History shows us where this leads.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#172

Post by _-david-_ »

jmcgough wrote: post #111
_-david-_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The measles vaccine has been around for decades. There are plenty of long term studies on the efficacy and saftey. How many long term studies have there been on any of the covid vaccines?

Has there ever been serious long-term side effects caused by vaccines? Yes, a tiny number of people have had serious short-term complications from them, but I'll take five deaths over 3,000 deaths a day. mRNA vaccines have been well studied - from a scientific standpoint it's hard to imagine how it even could cause problems.

A few people have died from covid vaccines which sure seems long term to me.

Here is an example of a long term problem caused by a (traditional, non-mrna) vaccine

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps...

As far as I know there hasn't been much research into the long term effects of many vaccines. After decades of availability if they were causing issues I hope somebody would have found a connection if they were causing issues. I would very much like to see research into this though.

I do agree mrna vaccines are unlikely to cause long term issues.

Just to be clear. I am very much in favor of vaccines. I just don't like being required to take it so soon after it was created.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#173

Post by mrhands69 »

pan69 wrote: post #164
mrhands69 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show people mortality rates for various things around the world. I wonder how the ones banging the "civil responsibility" drum would react.

The way I understand it is; you can't compare to mortality rates for other various things because these other various are spread out over a 12 month period. When there is a spike in Covid cases they all happen at the same time, which floods the health system and people die needlessly (e.g. not enough ventilators). People can get very ill (and die) from the flu as well but they don't tend to do this all at the same ti…

I'm all for the approach of not overwhelming healthcare. After the initial surge health care was not overwhelmed regardless of approaches to restrictions. Look at Florida vs California: They had same outcome with opposite approaches.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#174

Post by joshuamorton »

_-david-_ wrote: post #155
joshuamorton wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA vaccines have been researched for decades, and the only really novel part of the covid vaccine is the particular protein, which will also be present in a natural infection. So if you trust the decades of mRNA vaccine research, you should consider the vaccine strictly safer than covid, as getting the disease will expose you to everything the vaccine exposes you to.

Do you believe there doesn't need to be long term studies of traditional vaccines? There have been decades of research into them as well. I believe both mrna and traditional vaccines are safer than covid. I just don't like to take vaccines or medication without longer results than a year. I also agree mRNA vaccines shouldn't have any long term negative effects, but I tend to take the position when in doubt don't take…

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the amount of customization in an mRNA vaccine is much less than in more traditional vaccines, so the room for unexpected problems is essentially just the protein.

This is similar to how flu vaccines vary from year to year, but the mechanisms and changes are well understood so the approval process can be streamlined, but we don't expect issues from this year's flu vaccine that we didn't see last year, even though they are different.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#175

Post by myko »

loceng wrote: post #147
myko wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no, there just isn't evidence that ivermectin (or hydroxychloroquine before it) are effective at combatting COVID-19. There is a lot of evidence that the vaccines are good at combatting COVID-19 though. https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-shoul... Where did you first hear about using this drug to combat COVID-19, and did they describe the mechanism by which this parasite killing drug woul…

What's your source refuting all of these studies - c19ivermectin.com ? + Ivermectin mechanism: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422... . Quick Google search finds that.

In vitro, and studies are underway to determine if it would be effective in people. As such, it is not recommended in any way to use currently to treat or prevent COVID-19, and can be dangerous - as mentioned in the FDA link I shared above.

The site you mention above has been debunked as a credible source of study information, and is truly disinformation:

https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111...

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#176

Post by myko »

swader999 wrote: post #157
myko wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine folks are taking issue with calling anti-vaxxers a scapegoat when in reality the anti-vaxx ideology is the main driver of hospitalizations and deaths from COVID-19 in the USA today.

Comorbidities?

Comorbidities aren't driving deaths/hospitalizations as much as vaccinated/unvaccinated are. Pre-vaccine availability they and age were the largest factors.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#177

Post by d_silin »

sudosysgen wrote: post #158
mrhands69 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can get a source in a bit. IIRC it was the spike protein that causes some (still unknown) response from the human body. The mRNA vaccine elicit a response from the immune system to reproduce the spike protein.

We have no idea that the spike protein causes long covid. It's much more likely that damage from the viral infection and immune response is at least an equal cause. Beyond that, the virus causes orders of magnitude more spike protein response, so even if that was true, which it probably isn't, then it is still very unlikely that the vaccine could cause long-covid. Also, all vaccines introduce spike proteins in the bo…

Source for above:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201217154046.h...

Relevant part "The spike proteins alone can cause brain fog". And vaccines do produce viral proteins as intended.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#178

Post by joshuamorton »

d_silin wrote: post #177
sudosysgen wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have no idea that the spike protein causes long covid. It's much more likely that damage from the viral infection and immune response is at least an equal cause. Beyond that, the virus causes orders of magnitude more spike protein response, so even if that was true, which it probably isn't, then it is still very unlikely that the vaccine could cause long-covid. Also, all vaccines introduce spike proteins in the bo…

Source for above: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201217154046.h... Relevant part "The spike proteins alone can cause brain fog". And vaccines do produce viral proteins as intended.

That claim isn't made or supported by the cited nature article (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00771-8).

It appears to come from a researcher contacted by the site for the article. And it's probably true.

However, there's a few reasons to believe that "long" covid like symptoms wouldn't come from the spike protein alone:

1. As a parent mentioned, you generate a lot fewer proteins w/ the vaccine than the virus

2. IIUC, those proteins are more localized. The soreness with an initial injection is inflammation due to spike protein creation, and that's usually localized to the injection site. The proteins themselves are less likely to travel as widely as the virus.

3. The proteins don't last very long. They're gone after a few days. So long term symptoms wouldn't be due to a continued immune response. They might be due to inflammation that hasn't gone down, I guess, but that seems unlikely to last months.

And again, all of these will be worse with the virus than the vaccine. You'll have more spike proteins, for longer, over a larger part of your body, and also have a virus attacking you in addition to the immune response.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#179

Post by sudosysgen »

joshuamorton wrote: post #178
d_silin wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source for above: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201217154046.h... Relevant part "The spike proteins alone can cause brain fog". And vaccines do produce viral proteins as intended.

That claim isn't made or supported by the cited nature article ( https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00771-8 ). It appears to come from a researcher contacted by the site for the article. And it's probably true. However, there's a few reasons to believe that "long" covid like symptoms wouldn't come from the spike protein alone: 1. As a parent mentioned, you generate a lot fewer proteins w/ the vaccine than the…

Another thing is that spike protein from the vaccine in the arm has a much tougher time getting to the brain than viruses in the nose/olfactory bulb. That's on top of less spike to begin with.

Re: Pfizer says 2021 Covid-19 vaccine sales to top $33.5 bln, sees need for boosters

#180

Post by jonhohle »

mint2 wrote: post #163
incrudible wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pfizer and Moderna have similar risk profiles, everything else seems to be much worse. Argument B is highly subjective and I would argue that "the data isn't there" for the young and healthy parts of the population. Despite being "safe and effective" by the standards of medicine, a Sars-COV2 vaccination also carries a non-zero risk of disability and death. Argument C doesn't really cut it, because "someone else" shou…

Elsewhere in the replies to my comment there are plenty of responses to your first paragraph, please browse them if you’re interested in why those criticisms of ABC are not good and miss some crucial aspects of it. But the analogy to cars is flawed. A more equitable one would be to obey traffic laws and not do things like speed or lane jump. I.e driving in a responsible manner that is considerate of others safety. It…

The “rare” cases of vaccinated individuals infecting others are neither enumerated or fully understood. In fact, until this week the CDC seemed to downplay the idea that vaccinated individuals _could_ spread the virus. Now they seem to be so concerned about it that one of the banner benefits of being vaccinated - not having to wear a mask in public settings - has been rescinded.

At the same time employers now seemingly want to be on the hook for any communicable diseases spread on company property or function. People are being coerced into disclosing medical information or risk being treated like pariahs. It cannot be understated that people are being pressured into getting an unapproved (EUA is not approval) gene therapy (FDAs classification, not mine) that has never been widely tested in humans and has non-trivial side effects. This is unprecedented, at least in the US.

This is on top of being constantly mislead by media and government officials. NPR recently gave a stat, something to the effect of “young people under 40 make up half the positive COVID cases”. Sounds alarming, except that demographic makes up half the population _and_ that demographic had disproportionately mild symptoms from the disease.

If you want to be vaccinated, please go right ahead. But then stop. Allow others that you are not the guardian of to make their own health choices based on their personal research or decision making process.

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