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Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

theapeiron.co.uk

471–480 of 553 posts

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a two-party system creates the divide because it encourages such a powerful "us vs them" feeling I agree, but that's just the punch-and-judy show. The real disaffection stems from seeing how the incentives of politicians are reliably not aligned with their nominal constituents. We have legal precedent establishing money as speech, and a steep hill to climb for any third party to win the prerogatives which the two m…

Personally, I agree both parties are severely problematic, don't feel they're equally problematic. I vote for third party candidates with policy I actually agree with when it isn't going to negatively affect me or others when they inevitably lose. The sad reality is that FPTP makes strategic voting necessary if you want to have any kind of power. In addition to the issues you mentioned we need score or ranked choice…

> Voting for a third party candidate is effectively throwing your vote away in a protest no one will ever hear in a FPTP system.

Voting for a 3rd party is not a de facto protest vote, nor is it throwing it away in any case. What power do you get for voting for a party not aligned with your interests? If a third party should achieve a 5% vote, they are eligible for federal funds and would have a big impact on ballot access nationally.

That may not be very persuasive to you (based on conversations I've had with others who felt similarly), but I no longer need regret voting strategically (which actually feels like throwing my vote away).

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> installed wind power cost per year was 4 times the latest price of installed nat-gas per year I don't know which state you are in, but for the US as a whole "recent [2018] wind farms have gotten so cheap that you can build and operate them for less than the expected cost of buying fuel for an equivalent natural gas plant." https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-no...

But that's my point, none of these studies ever cite a utility's actual costs. When I got curious and looked at what the actual cost to the utility (not counting any federal rebates) just their actual outlays, versus how much power was generated over the year, it was ridiculous. And the easy way to know this is true is that utilities are still building nat-gas plants. It's not like they love nat-gas, they love money…

> just their actual outlays

My instinct is that you're not including the cost of the fuel, or maybe the two types of plants have different financing models that are hard to compare directly, but I wouldn't be qualified to check your results even if you presented all the data.

> It's not like they love nat-gas, they love money and profits.

Doesn't this logic cut both ways? If wind energy was so expensive, then no one would be building wind farms.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#473
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the distinction I am trying to make. The language may be political, but my love for my partner is not the same thing as the language I use to describe it. It's why this conversation is important: we are not merely symbol processing units, we are human beings with perceptions and feeling that are not entirely mediated by language and politics. That may seem to you as if I am splitting hairs. For me it's…

I'm not missing anything. You sit there and you tell us that there are things that you enjoy that cannot be described in a political manner. Nobody has ever suggested that your love for anyone is directly political. Where you can live, who you can openly love, what jobs you can hold, what education you can have, what art you can view, and who you can fraternize with... these are all impacted, sometimes substantially,…

You're spot on. All of the things the GP mentioned have people literally fighting political battles to continue enjoying them. I find the GP's thinking common with people who haven't experienced friction doing "normal" things most people take for granted.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#474
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Ranking, in general, creates filter bubbles. Do you really think strengthening the filter bubble would help? Discerning between truth and misinformation is also a "filter bubble". Any community-driven system that discerns between "this is what we like" and "this is what we hate" is also being used to discern between "this is what is true" and "this is what is false". Online communities with healthy cultures and d…

That’s not wrong, but you want actual proof if you’re going to block something because it’s false. That looks more like mod mail than like downvoting.

Then you've got moderators drowning in the bullshit asymmetry principle.

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/01/28/bullshit-a...

"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#475
post #176

I've noticed a difference between downvoting and non-downvoting discussions systems. In downvoting discussions, the top post will represent the consensus of the people engaged in the discussion. Note that this isn't "the truth" or "the consensus of the community" but of the people engaged on the subject. For example, if you see an otherwise-liberal community discussing gun-rights, the gun owners within that community…

My experience is that on predominantly (left) liberal communities, that a gun rights topic’s top post will rarely represent the view of gun owners. Everything else you said resonated, but that part strongly contradicted for me.

But in a leftwing forum most members wouldn't be gun owners, of course the consensus would sway towards them. As they're in much greater numbers. The OP wasn't saying it's a fair portrayal of the entire community, just a majority consensus. I feel the same applies here just as well

Even non-gun-owners are entitled an opinion on guns as they can be used against them too.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#476
post #176

I've noticed a difference between downvoting and non-downvoting discussions systems. In downvoting discussions, the top post will represent the consensus of the people engaged in the discussion. Note that this isn't "the truth" or "the consensus of the community" but of the people engaged on the subject. For example, if you see an otherwise-liberal community discussing gun-rights, the gun owners within that community…

This comment should have been the article. It is clearer, better reasoned, and more interesting. I mean: thumbs up!

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#477
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're demonstrating that everything can be made political by those who want to take it on a political tangent.

Not OP, but yeah, that was the point. Humans are social, thus political, animals.

That just means there’s a political element to human interaction, not that everything is political. Astronomy is about the cosmos, not politics, but astronomers engage in politics like everyone else. There’s an entire world outside of humanity, and some people are not interested in turning that into more human bickering, which you can easily find in explicitly political and news discussions.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#478
post #29

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

I wonder how much downvotes are to blame for the incredible political bias over on Reddit (just check out /r/politics). Or whether it would naturally occur without the downvotes anyway. I suspect downvotes exacerbate the problem but probably aren't the only cause.

r/politics is a huge echo chamber. Occasionally you will see posts with thoughtful disagreement, but usually it’s extremely one sided with the top 100 comments all confirming each other.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is better to get comments, even emotional and not well written. Because with comments I might understand where I was wrong, or at least know where exactly my opponent disagrees with me, because it I could have written a wall of text, not every sentence of it is wrong. Even a comment like "fuck you you are dumb bastard hateful shit" tells me much more than a downvote. With comment like that I know that the oppo…

> Because with comments I might understand where I was wrong Someone can disagree with you without you being wrong. If you think they are wrong in their response...what good is being done? If you both have intractable positions then more discussion on the topic is just lengthening scroll bars. Additionally if I disagree with you or just think you're wrong I don't owe you any explanation of that. You don't have a righ…

> You don't have a right to my time because we disagree. It's not my job to convince you.

Yes, but it is in HN (and HN community) best interest to incentivize you to reply. That's why downvotes are harmful.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#480
post #176

I've noticed a difference between downvoting and non-downvoting discussions systems. In downvoting discussions, the top post will represent the consensus of the people engaged in the discussion. Note that this isn't "the truth" or "the consensus of the community" but of the people engaged on the subject. For example, if you see an otherwise-liberal community discussing gun-rights, the gun owners within that community…

> In downvoting discussions, the top post will represent the consensus of the people engaged in the discussion

I wish I saw more consensus - things that are agreed upon by multiple sides - but in practice I tend to see a tyranny of the majority - whoever can win the upvote vs. downvote contest. The winning side rises to the top, while dissenting voices are silenced.

One sensible thing that I thought HN did but I don't see immediately in the guidelines is to suggest that downvoting isn't supposed to be a "dislike" button but is intended for comments that are spam, trolling, etc..

On HN, the first post to gather a lot of replies also seems to rise to the top.

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