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Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

theapeiron.co.uk

441–450 of 553 posts

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it right for you be taxed for using the sewer system? What are the environmental impacts of the massive scale of human shit having to be processed in treatment plants? Why does the government prevent me from shitting wherever I want, infringing on my freedom? First they take away your rights to shit on your neighbour's porch, then they take away your rights to see your kids on weekends. Stepping stones to tyranny.

You're demonstrating that everything can be made political by those who want to take it on a political tangent.

Not OP, but yeah, that was the point. Humans are social, thus political, animals.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#442
Facebook is worth $1 trillion. Twitter also very successful. I think they know what they are doing and do not need the advice of some random writer. Down-votes suck. They feel much worse on an absolute basis than the pleasure of up-votes. I am all in favor of removing them from all sites.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#443

Facebook is worth $1 trillion. Twitter also very successful. I think they know what they are doing and do not need the advice of some random writer. Down-votes suck. They feel much worse on an absolute basis than the pleasure of up-votes. I am all in favor of removing them from all sites.

Tiktok has skip which is an algorithmic downvote without being a social one.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#444

Facebook is worth $1 trillion. Twitter also very successful. I think they know what they are doing and do not need the advice of some random writer. Down-votes suck. They feel much worse on an absolute basis than the pleasure of up-votes. I am all in favor of removing them from all sites.

Society != profit. What benefits such trillion dollar companies isn’t aligned with what benefits society. Society doesn’t benefit from promotion of fake news, or other spreading of misinformation just to keep the people a minute longer on their platform to shove ads in their face.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#445

Facebook is worth $1 trillion. Twitter also very successful. I think they know what they are doing and do not need the advice of some random writer. Down-votes suck. They feel much worse on an absolute basis than the pleasure of up-votes. I am all in favor of removing them from all sites.

> I think they know what they are doing and do not need the advice of some random writer.

If you ignore the article's hypothesis that "things are getting worse" and that social media is contributing to it, then... yeah, companies making money from social media are doing just fine. Is society doing fine? Does it matter?

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a downvote wouldn't correct that, whereas a comment improves the discouse because it captures the best they can do. What's left in relief is something closer to truth.

(I don't actually think you're dumb, or that your comment is dumb. I wrote the sibling comment to this one to point out that it's just as easy to degrade discussion with bad comments as with downvotes. I'm sure you can think of many more offensive/asinine comments that you've seen on over the years.) A downvote says 'I dislike this, and I don't think it's worthy of any more time.' Yes, it's tough on the writer of the…

Worth engaging on that point, as I think the crux of the disagreement is about boundaries on rhetoric, and whether downvotes are an appropriate enforcement mechanism for a kind of rhetorical social contract. (pls correct if doesn't capture intent)

A billboard (or search results) with false accusations are a good example, as it exploits others' limited ability to reason about them, sort of like propaganda. It's why there are laws about libel, "fighting words," incitement, false advertising, harassment, perjury, and I'm sure others that fall outside free speech guarantees. They aren't great, or even very good, but they are examples of existing legal boundaries on rhetoric, so the "all/any discourse" already has some limits. Then we've got logical fallacies, and civility etc, so these are checks and balances in a dynamic and narrows the scope away from extreme examples.

Regarding "any discourse" being necessarily better than none, I'd very reluctlantly accept that position, but I would certainly say "most, and almost all discourse" is better than none. All and here? No. Most and here (public)? I'd still err on the side of liberality, even though I'd agree there exist a bunch of common systematic tactics designed to destroy discussions, but public discourse has evolved to handle an increasing number of those tacitcs by recognizing them as trolling.

My position is that discourse is hard, it takes practice, and when it's done well, it is a very refined human art that is an honest signal of thoughtful work. Even the "Dumb." comment in the example, if it were comedically timed or in context it might be brilliant, and is way better than a downvote. When discourse is crappy, it also signals the quality of the thought that goes into it, and I think that's a feature. Nobody is born a great thinker, and the only way we get better and create value we can share with others is by testing our ideas, with opposition. I'm saying downvotes subvert and even pervert that by rewarding spoilers.

That said, I'm oddly in favour of flagging as a tool for things completely out of contextual bounds because that's a request for refereeing, but absolutely against flagging on a global scale.

Regarding the busker, I'm saying that if to get a busking permit in a square you had to have a little box people could hit as they walked by that tallied peoples hostility toward you, is just as absurd on the internet as it sounds in real life.

Pleasure to engage! :)

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#448
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we don't, and no they don't. If you engage with ideas you don't like and debate them in good faith, and the promoters of said ideas keep just pumping them out (perhaps even using botnets or whatever) while ignoring all your good-faith attempts to refute them, then you are wasting your time. At some point you have to cut your losses; you stay open to persuasion by people who consistently exploit your willingness to…

I'd love to see a site like Reddit or HN experiment with using relationship graphs to research this. Start with some fixed points of "this person is a credible source of information" vs "this person is a neo-nazi conspiracy theorist" and examine the networks of people who support them and oppose them, and use that to establish credibility-scoring system-wide and weigh people's votes based on that. I mean, it would be…

What about clustering them by upvote/downvotes patterns (I.e. find the bots) and then “shadowban” their votes? (I.e. make them count as one or in any case a fraction of the total)

Maybe they would be hard to distinguish from regular user clustered because of group thinking , but even in that case I wouldn’t consider it a completely bad thing… :-)

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An idea I've been interested in trying is requiring people to downvote for a reason: "unproductive," "inaccurate," "off-topic." The hope is both to increase friction and to allow each person to decide which downvote reasons they want to respect. It also forces people to foreground why they are downvoting and gets rid of "why the downvotes" and changes it into "why is this unproductive?"

Hahahahahaha. This is exactly what reddit told its users to do (only downvote due to one of these reasons) - and exactly nobody does it. People will figure out to downvote for whatever "reason" that maximizes the impact of the downvote real fast; groups of people will make sure to weaponize it too even without coordination . E.g.: "the comment I hate doesn't have enough 'inaccurate' downvotes to sink into the abyss,…

I don't think that the suggestion was to tell people what to do, but to replace the downvote button with multiple buttons that represent different reasons one would downvote. One of the buttons could be "this is wrong and stupid."

If you're intentionally trying to restrict expression by eliminating options you don't like, you might as well just remove downvotes. If I'm reading it correctly, this suggestion would just add more signal to downvotes (even if irt karma they were all the same.)

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