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France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

sciencemag.org

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Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#221
post #127
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Known prions can’t cause an outbreak without extraordinary methods of spread, such as cannibalism.

Also no terrorist is interested in a weapon which takes 10 years to kill their target population, maybe. The threat of WMD terror hasn't materialized in a meaningful way: intact, state-manufactured nuclear weapons are the only plausible weapons non-state actors can realistically handle without killing themselves with them, and even that's pretty questionable: it's not easy to detonate a nuclear bomb. Chemicals are ev…

>Also no terrorist is interested in a weapon which takes 10 years to kill their target population, maybe.

Not necessarily. If you can somehow pull off a food supply chain attack which creates the perception that a lot of food may have been contaminated with prions, that could potentially very effectively induce a state of mass terror. Symptoms take years to manifest; can't be fully diagnosed until you're already dead; inevitably fatal.

It could potentially turn half of a country into (somewhat rational) hypochondriacs, even if almost no one actually became infected. And if it were confirmed that a lot of people were infected, that'd ramp up the fear much more. Also, the cost of pulling it off is probably much lower than the cost of detonating a dirty bomb or even a full nuclear bomb, while potentially achieving a much stronger effect.

>The threat of WMD terror hasn't materialized in a meaningful way: intact, state-manufactured nuclear weapons are the only plausible weapons non-state actors can realistically handle without killing themselves with them, and even that's pretty questionable: it's not easy to detonate a nuclear bomb.

I kind of disagree. Nuclear weapons seem like they probably won't be viable for terrorism for a very long time, if ever, but I don't think they're the only plausible weapons that can realistically be handled. Look at Aum Shinrikyo and their various planned, attempted, and successful chemical and biological attacks in the 90s. They killed 27 and injured over 6,000 people, but they came very close to potentially killing or debilitating tens of thousands.

There's definitely a risk of being injured or dying in the process, but they took (largely effective) precautions to prevent that. You can also do things like use binary agents which only activate when combined. But, perhaps most importantly, terrorists (regardless of motive/ideology) often fully accept and welcome that they may be harmed or killed in the process, so the risk isn't a big deterrent.

I suspect that within this century, at least one terrorist/cult/lone wolf chemical and/or biological attack is going to come close to, or succeed at, killing a large number of people, and I think the threat of future attacks may paralyze a lot of societies.

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#222
post #77
post #48

Could a cure be to stop proteosynthesis of the prion-protein? https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/artful-amoeba/prions-ar... "This protein, in its healthy, properly-folded state, is, if not trivial, relatively unimportant. Its complete loss is certainly not catastrophic." I have no idea how to block proteosynthesis of a single protein in humans, maybe more biologically attuned HN:ners can comment what it would mean…

It seems to me that in an adult, it may already be too late. How would you remove the existing protein?

Proteins have a half life of ~24 hours. CJD has an incubation period of roughly 10 years. If de novo PrP synthesis was somehow halted, the likelihood of developing CJD would drop to zero.

On the other hand whatever job PrP was doing will also cease getting done, and its downstream pathways will be disrupted. So there are likely consequences.

Now if you could totally shut down PrP synthesis for like a week, then turn it back on, that might work. In theory this is possible using a tet-expression system [1], but I've never worked with a tet system that wasn't leaky. The only sure way would be to KO PrP genes from all cells, then CRISPR it back in a week later. Oh, and I'm talking about cells in a culture dish; this strategy would never work in an adult human.

[1] https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/2015/april/introductio...

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#223

My horror vision after clicking the link: Imagine this merges with covid and the whole John Titor fluff becomes instantly more realistic...

> Imagine this merges with covid imagine the terminator and the alien merge! that's not how anything works.

>imagine the terminator and the alien merge!

It DID happen... and it was terrible:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112320/mediaviewer/rm35735552/

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if we have some dangerous prion, and some person is bypassing procedure, that still is needing some evaluation. prion escape and becoming common in populations would be a large disaster.

> prion escape and becoming common in populations would be a large disaster. IIRC, all known prion diseases are only transmissible by ingestion of infectious particles - meaning, eating from infected parts of a carcass, urine/feces and blood.

There does not seem to have been any ingestion in these two cases. Still, they do not involve transmission through air or through casual contact, but see the last couple of sentences here with regard to the former: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27984942

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#225

Hm: "long period of uncertainty began on 31 May 2010, when she stabbed her left thumb with a curved forceps while cleaning a cryostat—a machine that can cut tissues at very low temperatures—that she used to slice brain sections from transgenic mice infected with a sheep-adapted form of BSE . She pierced two layers of latex gloves and drew blood" Later in the article: ""We conduct research only on mouse-adapted sheep…

It seems like gain of function research is going on all over the place. Maybe Alex Jones isn't total conspiracy nut, as the media portrays him. He's just a head of what is commonly disseminated. I watched an interview with him where he claims to read a lot of research papers daily. Literally a dystopian science fiction fantasy of a virus man made in a lab infecting the world has a good likely hood of being true.

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#226
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negative externality is an economic term which describes a specific market failure. A research lab leak (or nuclear meltdown, or whatever) is a rare accident, not a negative externality. It would be like me saying the theory of relativity just means a theory about how everything is relative. That's obviously wrong. You can't just break down academic terms into their separate words. It doesn't make sense.

Third parties suffering a disease is the negative externality. There's no difference between a steel mill leaking sulphur in the course of producing steel and a biotech company releasing prions in the course of producing medicines. Radiation leaks in the course of producing electricity are likewise externalities.

Yes, there is a main difference which changes the entire definition. Sulfur emissions are a core part of steel production. You cannot manufacture steel without using carbon in the reduction process. It is inherent.

However, you CAN research diseases without having accidental lab leaks. Thousands of labs around the world do this perfectly fine year in, year out. That's the way it's normally done. The process of researching diseases does not inherently impose costs on anyone else.

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#227
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a nitpick, it's just wrong. Bad things happening is a cost which is both negative and external. The use of the term "negative externality" works here.

Negative externality is an economic term which describes a specific market failure. A research lab leak (or nuclear meltdown, or whatever) is a rare accident, not a negative externality. It would be like me saying the theory of relativity just means a theory about how everything is relative. That's obviously wrong. You can't just break down academic terms into their separate words. It doesn't make sense.

What I am arguing is that low-probability events can be treated as effectively certain over large enough sample sizes.

Similarly, dangerous jobs impose a societal health burden via workplace accidents. Each accident is one-off but in aggregate, a non-zero accident rate is a certain outcome.

Containment breaches of contagious diseases, while each a one-off event, are effectively certain over large enough sample sizes- and therefore should be considered as part of the cost of doing research into them.

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#228
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, you get infected, you die. Avoid cannibalism and you should be fine. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/wh...

>Avoid cannibalism and you should be fine. And animal brains, and the areas around experimental research labs...

Also see dura mater grafts: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6709a3.htm

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#229

The study of rare, contagious diseases seems likely enough to result in an eventual outbreak that it should be treated like enriching uranium. Which is to say, with great caution- and not like regular science but rather like the kind of science with potentially very negative externalities.

CJD isn't contagious, unless you start eating the brain of your friends.

Yes, it doesn’t seem like an immediate risk but I am making a more general point.

Re: France issues moratorium on prion research after fatal brain disease strikes

#230
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third parties suffering a disease is the negative externality. There's no difference between a steel mill leaking sulphur in the course of producing steel and a biotech company releasing prions in the course of producing medicines. Radiation leaks in the course of producing electricity are likewise externalities.

Yes, there is a main difference which changes the entire definition. Sulfur emissions are a core part of steel production. You cannot manufacture steel without using carbon in the reduction process. It is inherent. However, you CAN research diseases without having accidental lab leaks. Thousands of labs around the world do this perfectly fine year in, year out. That's the way it's normally done. The process of resear…

No, sulfur release is not a core part of steel production, and indeed sulphur emmision has been drastically reduced since regulations made steel producers bear the cost of sulphur emmissions, removing it as an externality.

Labs don't continuously spew out diseases, but they very much must impose the risk of such releases upon others. That is the cost. It costs money to insure against risk, even if the disaster never comes to pass. If a biotech company reduces its costs by implementing looser safety policies thus increasing risk to the surrounding population, that cost is borne externally. Hence the name.

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