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Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

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Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#91

Post by bserge »

detaro wrote: post #84
OrvalWintermute wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree completely. While in theory I completely agree downvotes should be around, in practice I have seen they are an ideological voting machine used to suppress opinions. It is kind of unusual how fast the downvotes appear, as if there are downvote bots running on the HN & Reddit. I've posted a comment and had what appeared to be 3 downvotes within a minute. Of course, I am an evidence driven technologist that is not…

I always find the assumption that quick reactions are "bots" a bit weird. If I click on an active discussion, some comments will be "0 minutes" old (like yours right now, although it won't be when I submit this comment, because typing takes time - but downvoting doesn't). If I click on "comments" tab on HN, all comments there are new. So it's not particularly surprising that many people see your comment very shortly…

They're not bots. Bots act on logic, however simple it is. These are mostly people who disengaged their brain.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#92

Post by TigeriusKirk »

crazy_horse wrote: post #21

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

Given that many of his public posts are devoted to ranting against conformity of thought, it's amusing that pg designed a forum that rewards exactly that behavior.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#93

Post by OrvalWintermute »

dahart wrote: post #89
crazy_horse wrote: post #21

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

It sounds like you have a lot more fear and assumption than experience here. In reality, crazy unfair downvote bombing is not even close to the norm here in my ~decade of experience. What makes you certain that someone with multiple accounts has downvoted you? Are you sure you weren’t just wrong and didn’t know it? I’ve been wrong in good faith and gotten fairly downvoted for it far, far more often than I’ve been unf…

I think the downvote brigading is getting more frequent.

Just look at the recent threads where a submission was flagged and you will see a ton of them.

Unfortunately, HN isn't showing the data behind quantities but due to the oscillations we see, there are definitely significant amounts of downvoting occuring.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#94

Post by detaro »

bserge wrote: post #91
detaro wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find the assumption that quick reactions are "bots" a bit weird. If I click on an active discussion, some comments will be "0 minutes" old (like yours right now, although it won't be when I submit this comment, because typing takes time - but downvoting doesn't). If I click on "comments" tab on HN, all comments there are new. So it's not particularly surprising that many people see your comment very shortly…

They're not bots. Bots act on logic, however simple it is. These are mostly people who disengaged their brain.

How do you figure that? Plenty cases where "would I downvote that" is not something you need to think a lot about, so "quick" != "disengaged brain".

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#95

Post by bopbeepboop »

bitexploder wrote: post #90
TchoBeer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many threads here about the politics of technology (big tech, open source vs closed source software, cryptocurrency and finance, the fabrication industry and China, etc) and there are also plenty of threads about politics unrelated or tangentially related to computers (off the top of my head, housing and homelessness, the schooling system, and climate change get discussed here not infrequently). HN isn't fo…

I agree. I guess it’s just not dogmatic. Moderators and HNers are very strict about being constructive on more political topics.

That’s the story.

In actuality, even factual and cited posts will get you shadowbanned if your opinion is contrary to the mainstream (on HN) narrative.

I think it’s more “conforming” than “constructive”.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#96

Post by laurex »

I'm curious why downvoting feels painful or frustrating. Perhaps I'm majorly naive. When I post a comment in HN, I sometimes feel a twinge of nervousness, since I'm not attempting any level of anonymity and I'm aware that some people have strong opinions, sometimes become personal, and cancel culture is a thing, but at the end of the day, if I'm downvoted, it's only a comment on the internet, not something about which I feel personally judged. People are entitled to their opinions, I'm not attached to them agreeing.

Sometimes, after I write something, I think, 'I could have phrased that more effectively' and sometimes I even change my mind based on someone else's more informed points. This is why I engage in discussion, not to be right, but to explore things I'm interested in and to learn.

I appreciate downvoting in an environment like HN, where usually it seems to be wielded in service of better conversation, but I also have seen it used to push down voices that might be simply passionate. There is a certain hegemony that may be enforced by downvotes. ("Why is THIS on HN?" is a clue). Still, there's an amazing level of thoughtful moderation, and I prefer to notice the culture from a slightly sociological perspective rather than thinking it needs to change by fiat, and make my small contributions from a slightly different perspective.

I don't comment on things that feel emotional to me, and sometimes things make me frustrated. I think downvoting is actually a good tool- however, I hope someone will educate me here.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#97

Post by austincheney »

dahart wrote: post #89
crazy_horse wrote: post #21

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

It sounds like you have a lot more fear and assumption than experience here. In reality, crazy unfair downvote bombing is not even close to the norm here in my ~decade of experience. What makes you certain that someone with multiple accounts has downvoted you? Are you sure you weren’t just wrong and didn’t know it? I’ve been wrong in good faith and gotten fairly downvoted for it far, far more often than I’ve been unf…

> In reality, crazy unfair downvote bombing is not even close to the norm here in my ~decade of experience.

My experience on HN is that it desperately hangs on the words you choose and the threads you visit. The lower the barrier to entry (social subjects for example) the more delicate and convergent things become.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#98

Post by kwhitefoot »

zzzeek wrote: post #68
crazy_horse wrote: post #21

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

downvotes matter a lot and you should not ignore them. they are trying to tell you something. you dont have to agree with that message, as I frequently post things on HN that get downvoted, usually not that surprisingly, and I continue to simply disagree with the majority HN community on certain topics. downvotes are usually accompanied by a few real responses that will add context to why these downvotes might be com…

If you want to tell me something you need to spell it out, not leave me guessing and wondering whether I have said something untrue or that you merely dislike it.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#99

Post by Wowfunhappy »

crazy_horse wrote: post #21

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

On HN in particular, I don't know how downvotes could be made any less psychologically impactful, short of completely hiding comment scores on even your own posts. Comments you posted never change color while you're logged in, so all you ever see is a little number, and the minimum score of -4 prevents massive pile-on situations.

I basically see HN voting as a sort of crowdsourced curation mechanism. I upvote comments that I think should appear closer to the top, and I downvote comments which I think should appear further down, or which should fade out and become easier to skip over. And that's a large part of what makes HN comment threads interesting to read.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#100

Post by talentedcoin »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #73
crazy_horse wrote: post #21

I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. But downvotes? I pretty much won't post on HN or Reddit because of them (and the culture associated with it). I've got no problem being wrong, but when I spend a significant amount of time trying to r…

> I've been in academia for awhile, I'm used to getting serious criticism. I'm a man, my whole life I've been told to toughen up. There's really almost nothing you can say to me that is going to hurt me. I really mean it. Tangential but whenever I read something like this, and people do post them a lot, I tend to assume they're actually normal, sensitive people who have learned that not showing any sign of harm means…

Experiencing a negative emotion is not always, or even most of the time, the same thing as being hurt.
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