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Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the background for this is that Kary Mullis believed AIDS wasn’t caused by HIV and was therefore angry at Fauci and the entire medical/scientific establishment for linking HIV and AIDS. He died in 2019 so his criticisms of Fauci were related to HIV, not SARS-CoV-2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Views_on_HIV/AIDS_...

Denialism and skepticism are often used as slurs in the absence of strong evidence by those who favor popular consensus over evidence. A PI once confided in me that he didn't believe in the big bang. I was startled because creationism was on the rise, and I knew that he was Catholic. However, I also knew he was a natural empiricist, and after taking a quiet moment to think things through, I realized I was being teste…

Somebody so pretentious to claim he doesn't "believe" HIV causes AIDS should be inoculated with HIV and settle the debate.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#182
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see QC statistics from some of the large test-processing centers which have IIRC been established. Surely they send a blind fraction of known-negative or control samples through, to get good statistics on false-positive rates?

Yes, CMS requires clinical labs to submit to external proficiency testing under CLIA'88. The College of American Pathologists is a designated accrediting body and the one I'm used to using. You are not allowed to do anything out of the ordinary with proficiency testing samples. You can't send them out to someone else and report what they reported to you. You just report the results. If you fail, they test you again.…

I was working in a hospital when they discovered the blood lab was not prepared for the Joint Comission, and I saw the panic based on the scale of consequences you describe.

My question refers to blinded testing meaning the lab in question does not know which, and handles, [in this case unexposed swabs from the factory] and it might range around 1-2% of samples on a continuing basis. To me that is the more industrial and continuous connotation of "QC". And the potential importance of "blind" testing.

AFAIK, in any hospital lab there are tests which are still sent out, because they are either more challenging to build and train the right [accurate, low-error] procedures around, or too rarely done for the local investment. What if PCR tests for Covid were also too challenging to ramp up to mass scale in a regional startup lab? There are reports around of horrible controls -- perhaps true or not. That is something sending "blinded" samples through, proportional to mass testing being done, could disclose.

Again, in the industrial setting there is the procedure you reported to the last ISO9000 auditor, and there is the actual procedure. The true spirit of that is that you should also build in procedures to detect when the production procedures are not being followed. Again back to ongoing QC.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#183
post #20

The most baffling thing is not standardising CT values for RT-PCR tests. I have looked and I cannot even find how increasing CT values affect the false positive rate for the PCR testing. If my understanding is correct a single increment of CT essentially doubles the sensitivity of the test, so difference between CT value of 35 and 40 is 32 fold. CDC is suggesting CT value of 28 for detecting breakthrough infections a…

Very disappointing that the top comment on this article is COVID misinformation. The forcry account was created 3 weeks ago and specializes in COVID misinformation.

No, CDC isn’t messing with the tests like this. And all this fancy talk about CT values is just cover for a false statement about CDC policy.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#184

Great journalism at work here! So - the expectation is that people with symptoms of Covid19 would be tested before being hospitalized? I am actually impressed that 44% were. It would be standard operating procedure for an hospital receiving a patient showing symptoms to give a test. In fact 88% received the test results within two days of hospitalization. I am still waiting for an explanation of ICU occupancy [0] if…

As someone who works in the NHS, I would also like to know. My trust has hit full capacity yesterday for the second time in two weeks. Another trust I work for had full ITU capacity and has had to cancel elective surgery. According to more senior clinical staff the hospital is full of genuinely sick people.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#185

Great journalism at work here! So - the expectation is that people with symptoms of Covid19 would be tested before being hospitalized? I am actually impressed that 44% were. It would be standard operating procedure for an hospital receiving a patient showing symptoms to give a test. In fact 88% received the test results within two days of hospitalization. I am still waiting for an explanation of ICU occupancy [0] if…

The problem is, even if they were asymptomatic and released from hospital e.g for their broken leg, they would still go in statistics as "This person was hospitalised for COVID-19".

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#186

I decided from the beginning to only focus on COVID deaths, and maybe intubation rates. Everything other measure seemed too fuzzy and ripe for manipulation. Death is a pretty definitive finding. But even this death metric is fraught with issues of “death from COVID” v. “death with COVID”. Deaths among the elderly are often ascribed to just “old age”…nobody cared about exact root causes until COVID came along. Most of…

I do the same. It's extremely sad to know the United States has lost more people to this than every war casualty since the Civil War.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abusing high cycle thresholds for false positives isn't a new strategy. PCR inventor Kary Mullis is on video calling Fauci out for doing exactly that. Unfortunately I can't even link the two videos because they keep getting memory holed. If you search around you might get lucky, otherwise I'll upload my saved copy when I get off work.

Note that the background for this is that Kary Mullis believed AIDS wasn’t caused by HIV and was therefore angry at Fauci and the entire medical/scientific establishment for linking HIV and AIDS. He died in 2019 so his criticisms of Fauci were related to HIV, not SARS-CoV-2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Views_on_HIV/AIDS_...

Last year I discovered this fact about Mullis and became very curious about how such an eminent scientist could have believed that about AIDS. But, I'd also realized by then that a lot of the so-called "science" about COVID was nonsense and based on invalid methodologies, that often scientists knew their results were wrong but published them anyway, and the whole system seemed hopelessly corrupted by bad incentives. So I didn't write it off, and went looking for his justifications.

It turned out Mullis had written an introduction to a book called "Inventing the AIDS virus" by a (former?) virologist called Peter Duisberg. This introduction laid out his case quite clearly and the book went into great detail, elaborating a theory about why AIDS and HIV are not in fact linked.

I ended up not developing any strong opinions about the merits of the theory, but I will say that it is a scientific theory and not easily dismissed. To do so would require a lot of detail because the people arguing that HIV isn't the cause of AIDS are scientists and have many scientific arguments.

Here is a brief tl;dr summary of Mullis' argument:

1. In the 1980s when AIDS was newly discovered, he was writing a paper about the use of PCR in the detection of HIV. He wrote "HIV is the cause of AIDS" and decided he should provide a citation for this claim, but he wasn't sure which paper actually established this. To his surprise, when he asked around, nobody else seemed to know which paper he should cite for this either, despite it being a by-then standard belief.

2. As he broadened his enquiries and did more research, he came to realize that nobody knew what paper to cite for this claim because none existed.

3. When he tried to find out why there was no paper proving the link between HIV and AIDS, he concluded the whole thing was built on groupthink and a strong desire by certain researchers for it to be caused by a virus, as the field of virology was at that point in deep distress due to the apparent lack of any serious viruses on the scene after the defeat of polio and the lack of any meaningfully sized link between viruses and cancer.

The Duisberg book then elaborated on exactly what was going wrong in a lot of detail, most of which I've now forgotten. But a few claims really stood out to me and I double checked them after reading the book. My fact checks passed, increasing my confidence in Duisberg's claims:

1. That the gender ratio of AIDS victims is radically different between Africa and the west. In the west, AIDS victims are predominantly men and always have been. In Africa there is no gender skew. This makes no biological sense because HIV is a very small virus and cannot know the gender of its host, let alone know/care whether the host is in Africa or not, at least not according to any current theory of genetics or biology. Duisberg provides a much simpler explanation: once AIDS hysteria reached a high enough point, western aid agencies started handing out money in proportion to reported AIDS incidence in a region, and handing it directly to doctors. Combined with the vague nature of AIDS symptoms (it's a syndrome, so the symptoms are the symptoms of whatever disease your broken immune system can't fight off), this gave a strong incentive for doctors to mis-label cases as AIDS in order to get more cash for their clinics.

I verified this claim against a database held by ourworldindata, if I recall correctly. Although the book is old, the claim is still correct.

2. That at some point people started cropping up who had AIDS but were not HIV+. This posed a major problem to the theory, but it was fixed by inventing a new disease with an incredibly long and technical name that had identical symptoms to AIDS but differed only in not testing HIV+. In other words, at some point having a positive HIV test became a "symptom" of the disease, and cases where it was missing were retroactively redefined as "not AIDS", thus making the theory unfalsifiable.

I verified this claim was true by looking up the Wikipedia page and a scientific paper talking about the "AIDS without HIV" disease and confirming the description. Unfortunately I can't remember now off-hand what it was called. I'd have to dig through the book. I recall Duisberg asserting that the name appeared to have been chosen to be very difficult to remember, and I'm inclined to agree.

Note: the same thing has happened with COVID, in which having COVID requires you to have a positive COVID test rather than any specific symptoms.

3. That (western) AIDS never broke out into the heterosexual population in the way that was predicted. That should have happened if AIDS was in fact caused by a virus and AIDS researchers therefore routinely predicted that it would happen ... but it never did. That makes no sense for a disease caused by a virus.

After reading the book I went looking for debunkings of it. The only ones I could find were very poor and mostly concerned with whether Duisberg should be allowed to speak at all. Of the remainder they made arguments that Duisberg had already successfully tackled in his book, so I wondered if there might have been multiple editions. At any rate, it's clear that "mainstream" AIDS science had chosen to simply ignore the problems flagged by Mullis and Duisberg. Given the behavior of health researchers with COVID science I can easily believe the same problems existed back then too.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#188
post #34
post #20

The most baffling thing is not standardising CT values for RT-PCR tests. I have looked and I cannot even find how increasing CT values affect the false positive rate for the PCR testing. If my understanding is correct a single increment of CT essentially doubles the sensitivity of the test, so difference between CT value of 35 and 40 is 32 fold. CDC is suggesting CT value of 28 for detecting breakthrough infections a…

> I have looked and I cannot even find how increasing CT values affect the false positive rate for the PCR testing. If my understanding is correct a single increment of CT essentially doubles the sensitivity of the test, so difference between CT value of 35 and 40 is 32 fold. I have never used this particular set of primers, but have done a lot of PCR. In general, at 30+ cycles, PCR is prone to spurious amplification…

It is worth noting here, as you didn't say it explicitly, that COVID labs routinely report positives as late as 40 cycles.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why are people going into hospital without having a Covid test first (assuming non emergency) The truth is that once you put aside the creepy fawning nationalism around the NHS it's actually got some serious systemic issues that never get properly resolved because it's a political football. It's not "joined up" very well at all, at least in my experience paperwork cockups are pretty much universal. The clinical staf…

> comically dysfunctional intentionally dysfunctional.. there has been a multi-decade effort to prep the NHS essentially for complete privatization

You mean the multiple decades that included a left wing Labour government, the same party that set up the NHS? A post-2008 crash spending freeze from which the NHS was exempt? The decades of huge budget increases?

The NHS is not intentionally dysfunctional any more than the USSR was. It's dysfunctional because the state cannot run large, complex operations regardless of how hard it tries. It's because the NHS is a top down command and control economy and those have never worked, in any period of history. It's because without competition the inevitable result is decay and steadily advancing institutional incompetence (paired with financial incontinence). That's why successful countries have economies based on free competition and why even China had to adopt it via Deng Xioping's reforms in the 1980s.

The NHS is an embarrassment to the UK and I say that as a British citizen. No other country has ever sought to emulate it because it is bad. The quasi-religious fervor with which it's viewed by the left occurs because it's an obsolete institution that nobody in their right mind would ever even consider proposing in the modern era, and they know it. If the NHS and BBC go then there would be no more socialist institutions beyond, perhaps, universities.

Re: Over half of Covid hospitalisations tested positive after admission

#190
post #184

Great journalism at work here! So - the expectation is that people with symptoms of Covid19 would be tested before being hospitalized? I am actually impressed that 44% were. It would be standard operating procedure for an hospital receiving a patient showing symptoms to give a test. In fact 88% received the test results within two days of hospitalization. I am still waiting for an explanation of ICU occupancy [0] if…

As someone who works in the NHS, I would also like to know. My trust has hit full capacity yesterday for the second time in two weeks. Another trust I work for had full ITU capacity and has had to cancel elective surgery. According to more senior clinical staff the hospital is full of genuinely sick people.

But that's inevitable. The NHS runs at close to capacity in normal times, but there has been a period of over a year now when people were being told to avoid going to hospital, to stay isolated at home, when doctors were not seeing patients. I am actually more surprised that you are surprised. The NHS has collapsed: waiting lists are now so long there is no way they will ever drain except by people simply dying due to lack of treatment. You should expect all hospitals to be completely full from this point on, as a natural consequence of lockdowns (ironically, the thing the lockdowns were supposed to avoid).
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