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Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

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Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#131

Post by pvaldes »

Zhenya wrote: post #86
radycov wrote: post #84

Funny the IDF don't really seem to be doing much search and rescue here - more like ethnic cleansing and apartheid: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54823660 "The United Nations has rebuked Israel for carrying out what it said was the biggest demolition of Palestinian homes in the occupied West Bank for a decade. Some 73 people, including 41 children, were made homeless when their dwellings were knocked d…

1) offtopic 2) The Israeli military said the structures had been built illegally.

> The Israeli military said the structures had been built illegally.

Is not the job of the army to declare what is legal or illegal in a democracy. Countries have a judicature system for that.

A bomb destroying your home with one minute warning is not equivalent to a court order, and can't replace it. Would be seen in any real democracy with a minimum respect by the rule of law as a ridiculously illegal move (and severely prosecuted).

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#132

Post by jokoon »

skinkestek wrote: post #127
jkkorn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians? My guess is that they do more to protect the average palestinian than meets the eye....definitely more than Hamas or Fatah Also, I'd take HRW with a grain of salt when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even their founder has expressed concern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watc... . Might be interesting: https://www.jpost.com/m…

You are correct. Avoiding civilian casualties is however extremely hard when you deal with people who: - fire rockets from schools, hospitals and generally populated areas (there are wide fields they could have used) - encourage people to stay when they get informed about bombing - count bombed terrorists as civilians (lists exist with names and photos of claimed "civilians" in uniforms and with guns) - when hitting…

Most palestinians suffer from this situation, but it's important to remind everyone that palestinians torture each other because there are 2 camps, Fatah led my Mahmoud Abbas, and the Hamas, which is heavily influenced by Iran.

I don't like Israeli extremists either, but at some point, I don't think Israel can just sit idle when rockets are fired from civilian positions and fired on Israeli civilians.

Palestinian terrorists are evil cowards and they don't hesitate to put civilian in danger and talk about martyrdom.

Palestinians have been protesting Mahmoud Abbas, and as long as Palestinians are unable to gain leadership and organize, violence will continue. I really dislike how people have been blaming Israel as a whole. The extremist government surely has responsbility, but I'm curious about how de-escalation will be possible.

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#133

Post by mym1990 »

cromka wrote: post #68
mym1990 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote is 'In all, the Israeli team found about 84% of the nearly 100 victims.' and the realization that they might mean that they found 84% of the body parts vs 84% of the people.

That would mean they would have to know the exact body mass of the 100 victims prior to their death and weighed each recovered piece of flesh. That's morbid and really just overthinking it.

1. I was just pointing out thats where the OP mind could wander to, especially within the context of the story.

2. The irony is that you are the one overthinking by going as far as to suggest weighing flesh. One can recover a body from the waist up and consider it 50%.

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#134

Post by skinkestek »

DSingularity wrote: post #130
skinkestek wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. Avoiding civilian casualties is however extremely hard when you deal with people who: - fire rockets from schools, hospitals and generally populated areas (there are wide fields they could have used) - encourage people to stay when they get informed about bombing - count bombed terrorists as civilians (lists exist with names and photos of claimed "civilians" in uniforms and with guns) - when hitting…

Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes. Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes. Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering. Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach. The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. They want us to pretend l…

> Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes.

> Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes.

This is another important discussion. However the recent east Jerusalem case has been about Jewish homes that was given to Arab families during the short Jordanian rule of the area, wasn't it?

> Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering.

I cannot support everything Israelis do. If this is correct and the kids where unarmed etc this is a war crime and should be punished as such.

> Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach.

Extremely sad case. Also possible reason for war crimes investigation, but:

It would be extremely ironic if that case gets prosecuted while the even worse guys who start a war from this area doesn't get prosecuted.

Israelis are to blame here for not being careful enough, "Palestinian leaders" for starting this.

> The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1].

No, they are quite clear that it is civilian buildings - only with significant presence of legitimate targets.

> They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2].

Link does not support your claim?

> They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3].

Again, link does not support your claim.

[...]

> I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians?

I do not dehumanize them.

I feel terribly sorry for them.

They are suffering more than the Israelis now.

But the solution isn't to continue to ostracize the least unreasonable part of the conflict and turn a blind eye to the ones who keeps starting this "war" again and again.

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#135

Post by danielschonfeld »

DSingularity wrote: post #130
skinkestek wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. Avoiding civilian casualties is however extremely hard when you deal with people who: - fire rockets from schools, hospitals and generally populated areas (there are wide fields they could have used) - encourage people to stay when they get informed about bombing - count bombed terrorists as civilians (lists exist with names and photos of claimed "civilians" in uniforms and with guns) - when hitting…

Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes. Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes. Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering. Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach. The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. They want us to pretend l…

The answer is war. Like it or not, Israel and Palestinian leadership have been and for now will continue to be in a state of war over the backs of their own constituents.

If you think you’ll find any war zone with pretty pictures and pink unicorns you’re dead wrong.

Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq. Look at Iran. Even Myanmar.

What you’re doing with your videos is biased emotional guilt. It’s disingenuous.

Mind you most of the countries I mentioned are fighting among one another. The Palestinians fight, threaten and kill one another as well as keep a perpetual state of moving the goal posts when it comes to any notion of an agreement. So yes, you see people who are sympathetic to the Israeli cause dehumanize them. Is it right? No. But opresee’s hands are exactly clean either. Not even when it comes to their own people.

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#136

Post by skinkestek »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #115
radycov wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, how about I drop a 30 second "door knock" before I blow your life to smithereens because I feel like your 10 story building might be hiding a few kalashnikovs? Feel free to evacuate to the few hundred meters of free space in the world's largest open air prison. The simple fact is: this is colonialist ethnic cleansing and the only reason it goes unchecked is because of historic Western guilt uncritically favouri…

> the only reason it goes unchecked is because of historic Western guilt uncritically favouring the Israeli state for geopolitical reasons. That is not true. It is the US alone whose conscience is tarnished. If it wasn't for the US, I am sure the rest of the developed world would not stand for such injustice.

A growing number of Europeans are also getting their eyes up for the fact that it has been one small democracy (kind of) against a whole region of warlords propped up by oil money from the gulf.

It used to be for years that newspapers only wrote "Israel bombed". Now they write "Israel bombed [...] after days of rocket attacs".

Hopefully it will soon be: "After days of unprovoked attacks Israel demolished weapons".

At that point maybe we can get UN soldiers on the ground to catch the torturists and warmongers in Gaza and elsewhere, get rid of the rockets, restart schools with a curriculum that doesn't include death wishes for their closest neigbours etc.

Well, one can dream.

Here is a very short joke: the UN.

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#137

Post by skinkestek »

redis_mlc wrote: post #99
Zhenya wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forgot the /s at the end of your statement. IDF is best known for fighting defensive wars from aggressive arab armies. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces Additionally they are known for rescue operations. A few examples below: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen) They are also known for civilian rescue op…

The parent is largely correct. In addition, Iran is financing and using Gaza as a proxy war with Israel. I wouldn't call the IDF "100% humane", as they deliberately shoot reporters, but they are fighting a defensive war to avoid being pushed into the sea - there is no peace treaty with their neighbors. Arab countries have had decades to offer to resetttle Palestinians and Uighurs, but not a peep.

> I wouldn't call the IDF "100% humane", as they deliberately shoot reporters,

sources?

> Arab countries have had decades to offer to resetttle Palestinians and Uighurs, but not a peep.

Also remember that far more jews have been chased from their homes in lands around Israel than Arabs from within Israel, the major difference being that Israel integrated its own people instead of abusing them as a living pawn in a horrible game.

Also remember that Israel tried to get Arabs to stay but they were convinced by their own to leave to make "cleansing" the area easier in 1948.

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#138

Post by [deleted] »

dutchy15 wrote: post #69
jimmy2020 wrote: post #62

It would be great if IDF did the same when it comes to Gaza: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/27/gaza-apparent-war-crimes...

IDF offered help recently to Lebanon during the crisis. Lebanon refused. You can guess how the response of Gaza will look like...

[deleted]

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#139

Post by jkkorn »

throwaway210222 wrote: post #126
jkkorn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh but AP did criticise at first...but the editor did admit there was a Hamas presence in the building https://www.businessinsider.com/former-associated-press-edit... Going back to the AlJazeera aspect: Qatar funds Hamas (one source cites 400m USD in 2014) AND provides the "right media coverage" through AlJazeera. From where I'm standing it doesn't look like there is one sided propaganda

> but the editor did admit there was a Hamas presence in the building Ah, so its OK to drop bombs on the entire building then? So, by extrapolation, if there is a Hamas teacher or a Hamas nurse in a school or hospital, then the IDF can wipe those out too? Nice.

wait what's a Hamas teacher or a Hamas nurse? Look at Al-Shifa hospital. Built by the Israelis, today a hospital, rocket launch site, bunker and ammunitions cache all in one.

IDF's responsibility is to keep Israeli citizens safe(jews, muslims and christians). If someone across the border is using firing thousands of rockets at civilians then the IDF is going to step in.

Unfortunately the retaliation which will lead to the fewest civilian deaths will be bombing the launch site ( a civilian building).

What's the alternative? Mount a massive land invasion into a booby trapped hell hole?

Re: Israeli military search team helped recover majority of Surfside victims

#140

Post by jkkorn »

nashashmi wrote: post #122
jkkorn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians? My guess is that they do more to protect the average palestinian than meets the eye....definitely more than Hamas or Fatah Also, I'd take HRW with a grain of salt when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even their founder has expressed concern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watc... . Might be interesting: https://www.jpost.com/m…

The Wikipedia is a case of whataboutism. And a complaint of how difficult it is to influence HRW by government, leaders and special interest groups. The fact that you linked to a jpost article and shined light on the little israel does to “save” lives after literally bombarding them tells me where you stand in relation to the conflict.

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