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For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

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Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#371

Post by norman784 »

jlnthws wrote: post #289
yourenotsmart wrote: post #248

The problem isn't Safari as much, which pioneered HTML5, and is the most power-efficient browser on any platform I've seen. The problem is web devs. Web developers have increasingly the attitude of "I don't want to learn how to make apps, I want to use HTML/CSS/JS for all apps I make", and this plays directly into Google's interests, which benefits from everything being web, because it has its tentacles all over the…

This is the best answer. Web devs blindly following edgy Chrome trends which are nothing more than a way to slow down Apple's revenue (which is fair game). App Store revenue was over $70B last year, with a 20% increase every year. Let me put it into words for you: seventy billion dollars. This is more than the total revenue of Intel, HP, Walt Disney, Unilever, FedEx or Pfizer, from the App Store alone. Most of that r…

Isn't all about revenue, I hope one day we will have native apps again, now also desktop apps are Chrome (electron), IHMO in this case I think Apple is right, push more for native apps (not wallet gardens), The web browsers for sure are the most battle tested apps out there, but they use a huge amount of resources (ram) in order to show your app, if you push for native apps then your possibilities are endless, you don't need to wait till the browser vendor implement some feature, also notifications are the worst thing, there's a lot of naive people that accepted those and cannot find how to disable them, even I struggled a bit to find that the notifications that someone got in his computer came from the browser, windows doesn't tell that in the notification center.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#372

Post by mattkevan »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #339
collaborative wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web apps can now be written in WASM, which is just as performant as any "native" app. I for one am porting my native app to the web using this technology and find it is some times even faster than native java/objective c (ironic)

See, this is hype. I don't find Figma (running in Chrome) to be as responsive as Illustrator or Pixelmator.

Figma is definitely not as responsive as a native app.

The Figma Electron app with a large document open can bring my less-than-a-year-old MBP to its knees. Figma and Teams at the same time? Forget it.

The same document in Sketch is fine.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#373

Post by drdec »

BoxOfRain wrote: post #325
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect that developers are simply angry with Apple for not letting them to fiddle with the latest stuff that Google is experimenting with. That is absolute bullshit. Browser push notifications have been out for years on other browsers (INCLUDING desktop Safari), and they are the one thing that Apple is dragging their feet on the most because they know it's the most important thing that prevents a dev from just d…

This is a personal opinion, but I'm actually really glad Apple are dragging their feet on this. I absolutely despise presumptious software that feels entitled to my attention as and when it chooses. I have my browser set up to wholesale reject all push notifications, I don't let the vast majority of my apps send me push notifications, and any application that feels entitled to pollute my inbox (email already has an a…

>This is a personal opinion, but I'm actually really glad Apple are dragging their feet on this.

>I have my browser set up to wholesale reject all push notifications

I am struggling to understand the reasoning here. You don't like feature X but fortunately there is a configuration to turn it off. But you would still like it taken away from everybody else?

Perhaps I am misrepresenting your position, could you clarify?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#374

Post by tinus_hn »

candiddevmike wrote: post #351
tinus_hn wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a PWA can’t compete in quality with a proper native app, should a competitor ever build one you’re toast. The question just revolves around how integral an app is to the business. Online banking probably requires an app. A restaurant that offers online ordering probably does not. A video game requires an app. An online encyclopedia does not.

I think this is wild conjecture. Users don't care as much as you think about "native performance", they care about features and price. PWAs can be iterated faster than native apps, and they circumvent the app store tax. They also let the business control the onboarding and sales funnel vs text only app storefronts filled with garbage.

Native performance is a feature in itself and is not about speed but about UI standards and features.

If your statement was true, there wouldn’t have to be any complaints about Apples ‘walled garden’ because there is no ‘walled garden’ for PWAs.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#375

Post by rand49an »

spfzero wrote: post #23
slindz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. I have this uneasy reliance on Chrome for supporting PWA's properly since Mozilla lost interest. It's a life/routine manager for people with horrible memories. Chrome stands alone in supporting web push notifications :S

The last thing I’d want is a web push notification. I don’t have a favorite browser, but if there were one which blocked pop-ups asking me to assent to notifications, it would be my new favorite.

At least in Chrome and Edge you can just disable notifications completely in the settings menu.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#376

Post by candiddevmike »

tinus_hn wrote: post #374
candiddevmike wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is wild conjecture. Users don't care as much as you think about "native performance", they care about features and price. PWAs can be iterated faster than native apps, and they circumvent the app store tax. They also let the business control the onboarding and sales funnel vs text only app storefronts filled with garbage.

Native performance is a feature in itself and is not about speed but about UI standards and features. If your statement was true, there wouldn’t have to be any complaints about Apples ‘walled garden’ because there is no ‘walled garden’ for PWAs.

Apple effectively doesn't allow PWAs on iOS, so I don't follow your last point.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#377

Post by DonHopkins »

throwawayswede wrote: post #296
DonHopkins wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan Eich doesn't understand equality.

What does that mean?

It means Brendan Eich is opposed to same sex marriage: Brendan doesn't believe that same sex couples should have equal rights as opposite sex couples. There's something about equality that deeply disturbs and confuses Brendan, so much that he donated a large amount of money to the cause of tearing apart families by destroying legally married loving couple's existing same sex marriages in California, while Brendan and his own opposite-sex wife enjoyed all the benefits of marriage themselves. Brendan Eich believes that his own marriage is greater than, not equal to, same sex marriages of lesser people.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#379

Post by yourenotsmart »

Dah00n wrote: post #361
lionkor wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, I could not agree more. I've always struggled to put it into words, but > web devs are among the least educated, least sophisticated, most entitled and most whiny bunch there is This is exactly what I see. I'm a C/C++ developer, and recently started to re-make my website[0] (very WIP) together with my partner, and I've had a few web-devs and other devs tell me that it's really fast (i didn't notice because I'…

You mention a simple site with HTML and CSS. That is actually quite funny in a discussion about Safari as CSS is one of the areas that Safari is behind other browsers. A site with those frameworks would very likely work better in Safari than one without them (but yes I dislike them too which is one of the reasons I dislike Safari). https://caniuse.com/

You claim Safari is so behind in CSS that it's "quite funny" to discuss making a simple HTML and CSS site in it. And you didn't bother to name even one important missing CSS feature.

Very low effort.

If you want to be taken seriously, bring some facts and examples next time, not just generic internet flamebait.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#380

Post by notsureaboutpg »

ace2358 wrote: post #300
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect that developers are simply angry with Apple for not letting them to fiddle with the latest stuff that Google is experimenting with. That is absolute bullshit. Browser push notifications have been out for years on other browsers (INCLUDING desktop Safari), and they are the one thing that Apple is dragging their feet on the most because they know it's the most important thing that prevents a dev from just d…

The thought of websites sending me notifications is reason enough for me to want either an app so that I can easily control it’s notifications, or to just not use the service at all.

You can control notification settings in your browser easier than app notifications on your phone and you can persist those settings across your laptop / phone / etc. (At least on Firefox you can)

I see lots of non technical users who are really annoyed by iOS apps intrusiveness and do not know how to disable things like location seeking / notifications / etc. per app.

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