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Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

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Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#31

Post by retrac »

teruakohatu wrote: post #17
gojomo wrote: post #12

Something about this reminds me of the 'Winning Ticket Hypothesis' in artifical neural networks: that some 'random' initializations prime a network far better for later faster learning. From https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03635 - the abstract: Neural network pruning techniques can reduce the parameter counts of trained networks by over 90%, decreasing storage requirements and improving computational performance of infere…

> Are these innate patterns of activity priming mammalian brains in a similar way? A newborn foal can stand within 55 minutes of being born and can walk or run within 90 minutes. That is crazy fast training speed. Is it training initialization or is it a form of transfer learning? Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot…

> That is crazy fast training speed.

Is it? If we ignore compute requirements, how long would a good algorithm take to learn something like balancing a quadrupedal robot, based on real-time feedback to its outputs? It is a simpler problem, but drone flight software based on learning, can re-learn how to fly a quadcopter after something like losing a propeller and a sudden shift in weight distribution, in a few seconds.

A robot could be built that learns how to adapt to something like a limb being lost or added or half its weight shifted to the other end. It could probably learn an approximate optimal to move under those conditions in just seconds, as well. Though, I suspect that foal might actually be nearly as adaptable. Adult horses, or humans... not so much. We have many overlapping models of how to move, probably. I would take only seconds to adapt to half my weight being added on my shoulders, in the same ballpark as our best robotic systems. But if my left leg grew four inches it would take me a lot longer than the robot to learn and internalize the best way to move again. I could barely keep up with that when it was just a few inches a year when I was a kid.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#32

Post by 3pt14159 »

teruakohatu wrote: post #17
gojomo wrote: post #12

Something about this reminds me of the 'Winning Ticket Hypothesis' in artifical neural networks: that some 'random' initializations prime a network far better for later faster learning. From https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03635 - the abstract: Neural network pruning techniques can reduce the parameter counts of trained networks by over 90%, decreasing storage requirements and improving computational performance of infere…

> Are these innate patterns of activity priming mammalian brains in a similar way? A newborn foal can stand within 55 minutes of being born and can walk or run within 90 minutes. That is crazy fast training speed. Is it training initialization or is it a form of transfer learning? Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot…

> that we require a much lower initial learning rate.

The way I understand it is that is not so much required as not selected for. We could certainly be able to walk at one day old if evolutionary pressure made it necessary, but it prioritized other aspects in our cognitive development to survive so we don't. It's not as if we say "oh, horses can walk early and therefore are incapable of rational thought" we evaluate them on their own merits.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#35

Post by rudyfink »

sjg007 wrote: post #33

Do they do this in the dark and is it correlated with light input.. so is the eye/brain responding to stimulus even though the eyes aren't open yet?

I recall once hearing a talk that discussed, what I recall as, "test patterns" being run across the visual cortex prior to birth. Essentially, waves / patterns of stimulation would go across the optic structure that would be used to, again as I recall it, "calibrate" the visual system.

I dug a bit and was able to find this paper https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15289028/ , which seems to track my memory. It has a number of forward and backward citations if you are interested. Perhaps someone with far more than my vague recollection of a talk will step in though!

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#36

Post by dogorman »

taneq wrote: post #25
dogorman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the suggestion that fetuses might dream probably seems outlandish if, for some reason, you were already committed to the idea that fetuses are "not alive."

I find it highly implausible that many people believe fetusus are "not alive". You might be referring to the widely held position that an early-term fetus isn't sufficiently developed to be considered a full-fledged human, and that any rights it might have don't outweigh those of the mother who is carrying it?

I've found that "fetuses aren't alive" is a common talking point espoused by people who aren't comfortable sitting in a moral gray area and want an simple excuse to resolve their cognitive dissonance. It's common enough that I can't help but wonder if that is the reason people are so resistant to the idea that fetuses might dream. It seems remarkably similar to "farm animals can't feel pain". A transparent fib people tell themselves to feel better about their positions. Incidentally, I eat meat and I am pro-choice.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#37

Post by phire »

taneq wrote: post #23
teruakohatu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are these innate patterns of activity priming mammalian brains in a similar way? A newborn foal can stand within 55 minutes of being born and can walk or run within 90 minutes. That is crazy fast training speed. Is it training initialization or is it a form of transfer learning? Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot…

> Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot mature due to birth canal constraints I strongly doubt that human babies are physiologically capable of walking before 6-9 months regardless of their level of brain development. The entire baby is born many months "early" compared with other mammals due to the limitations of the…

Babies can't even roll-over until 4-6 months

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#38

Post by teawrecks »

gojomo wrote: post #12

Something about this reminds me of the 'Winning Ticket Hypothesis' in artifical neural networks: that some 'random' initializations prime a network far better for later faster learning. From https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03635 - the abstract: Neural network pruning techniques can reduce the parameter counts of trained networks by over 90%, decreasing storage requirements and improving computational performance of infere…

In the context of real life we draw a distinction between thus neonatal dreamlike state and post birth "reality". But in the context of a neural net, I don't think such a distinction is necessary. They both sound like they're training the network. Still interesting to consider the parallels though.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#39

Post by emtel »

gojomo wrote: post #12

Something about this reminds me of the 'Winning Ticket Hypothesis' in artifical neural networks: that some 'random' initializations prime a network far better for later faster learning. From https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03635 - the abstract: Neural network pruning techniques can reduce the parameter counts of trained networks by over 90%, decreasing storage requirements and improving computational performance of infere…

It’s not just mammals. I’ve always been astounded that spiders know how to spin webs. Their mothers don’t teach them how!

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#40

Post by soheil »

teruakohatu wrote: post #17
gojomo wrote: post #12

Something about this reminds me of the 'Winning Ticket Hypothesis' in artifical neural networks: that some 'random' initializations prime a network far better for later faster learning. From https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03635 - the abstract: Neural network pruning techniques can reduce the parameter counts of trained networks by over 90%, decreasing storage requirements and improving computational performance of infere…

> Are these innate patterns of activity priming mammalian brains in a similar way? A newborn foal can stand within 55 minutes of being born and can walk or run within 90 minutes. That is crazy fast training speed. Is it training initialization or is it a form of transfer learning? Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot…

> A newborn foal can stand within 55 minutes of being born and can walk or run within 90 minutes. That is crazy fast training speed. Is it training initialization or is it a form of transfer learning?

Probably neither. How does the human baby "learn" to breath almost immediately after birth? I suspect the answer here is also the same.

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