A good addition might be to point out good first guesses for the vowels in non-English names (Examples used assume a General American accent): * "A" as in "ah" (like "ah, I see") * "E" as in "e" in "pet", or the "ai" in "pain" * "I" as in the "i" in "pit" or the "ea" in "peat" * "O" as in the "o" in "cot" or the "o" in "cone" * "U" as in the "u" in "put" or the "oo" in "doom" (Americans might notice that this approxi…
> If you know the name is from an Indian language, read "a" as the "u" in "putt" Please stop making up stuff like "an Indian language". If you mean Hindi-Urdu and that language family, then just call it that, don't subtly encourage people to think that is the language for all of India.
Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
441–450 of 474 posts
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#442People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…
The tip they gave English speakers for pronouncing "szcz", was that it sounded like the sh-ch connection between the words "Fresh Cheese".
Ironically, I didn't know how to pronounce it properly until then and it's in my last name! I always anglicized its pronunciation to "sha".
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#443Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's interesting, could you elaborate on the difference in 'w' between 'wise' and 'when'? I'd say 'Wookash' as in star-wars 'Wookie' is a good way (way, hehe) to say Łukasz. I'm not a linguist though so I'm curious
Some English speakers pronounce "w" differently than "wh". They will say sth that sounds like "hwhen" instead of "when" for example. I think it's a dialect thing I only met like 5 people online who spoke like that but they were all native English speakers so it must be correct?
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#444Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except in most Slavic languages r can work as a vowel. (if you are confused think about how the y in year is a vowel sound but works as a consonant in the syllable)
Y in year does not represent a vowel sound.
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#445One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…
I wondered this too when learning Pinyin. I believe the reason is that while Pinyin's X and Q may sound like "sh" and "ch" to English speakers, they are actually different sounds (and contrast with the "sh" and "ch" sounds that also exist in Mandarin). That said, I still wonder why -ui was chosen for "wei", "shi" is pronounced "shr", "-ian" is pronounced "yen", etc... MPS-II seems much closer to intuitive pronunciati…
Neither Mandarin sh nor x exist in English. X is sharper and is a little more like shy-, whereas sh is darker and a little like shr-. In reality they both strike English speakers as being quite like sh, because we use the space differently.
I've heard various native English speakers who are fluent in Mandarin saying e.g. Xi as Si. I don't know if there's a dialectal difference in English or in Mandarin or both that accounts for it.
> That said, I still wonder why -ui was chosen for "wei"
It looks better, if you have a certain aesthetic.
> "shi" is pronounced "shr"
As far as I know Mandarin speakers just consider them the same. Pinyin is designed for native speakers.
> "-ian" is pronounced "yen"
The e in Pinyin isn't really the English e sound. It's more like the American short u in fun or the NZ short i in pin. It's not obvious what letter to use to represent that, but e is not completely unreasonable. When they do have an e-sound according to the internal logic of Mandarin, it's a variant of an a-sound.
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#446One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…
I'm always puzzled by certain British imperial transliteration schemes that seem to do their best to set you up for failure and embarrassment. Apparently "Burma" is supposed to be pronounced in a non-rhotic fashion, but would it have killed the non-rhotic speakers to write "Bama"? Then the rhotic speakers who form the majority of English speakers would have at least had a fighting chance to get it right. Another thin…
To be fair, Bama wouldn't be the right pronunciation. The easiest way for an RP speaker to indicate what the right pronunciation should be is to write "Burma". An American might try Buhma.
And your complain about "rhotic speakers" being "the majority of English speakers" could only have been taken into account of the British transliterator had access to a time machine to determine the future.
At the time, a person in the British empire wouldn't have been considering the opinions of an American, because America and Britain had separate spheres of influence and a generally amicable but not integrated existence. To them, RP was the language of the elite and that was all that mattered.
But if they were to consider the situation in America, they would have seen that in America as in Britain, non-rhotic accents were on the rise and were somewhat prestigious. If they were going to consider the future situation of the 21st century globe and how someone might pronounce the word in an American-centred word, it would have been entirely reasonable for them to have supposed it would have been one with a non-rhotic accent.
Another matter you might consider is that a very strict spelling would not necessarily help matters anyway. The J in Beijing is pronounced more-or-less like an English j, but that doesn't stop people from mutilating it into the s of measure. Or the person who responds to you, who observes that "Punjab" should be pronounced roughly like the English spelling should indicate, but which is often pronounced with the u of push instead - both because of a widespread assumption that all words in foreign languages are pronounced like Italian, Spanish or French.
And the final matter, which might hopefully set your blood at some ease, is to note that when a word is borrowed into a foreign language, it is subject to different pressures. You are not obliged to pronounce "Burma" or "Myanmar" the way any particular natives of Burma or Myanmar do. The English words are English words, intended to help English speakers identify a place in a generally non-offensive manner. There will always be variation between the source pronunciation and the destination pronunciation, especially once a few hundred years have intervened, and that's fine. The question is can we all agree that these are suitable words for referring to that country?
English is one language with multiple dialects, so words that enter the language from a certain dialect will reflect that history to a greater or lesser degree. Even when there isn't an "r" in the spelling, Americans still manage to put an r into the pronunciation, as with Goethe or Gödel. So to blame the British for unetymological r is just false. Americans do it because they recognise the unity of the language, and they're communicating rather than upholding any particular notion of perfection. It is unreasonable to say that the only reason for the British to do the same is that their life depends on it.
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#447Earlier quoted context omitted.
I generally go with a native pronunciation unless told otherwise. So I would pronounce it John Dubwah, but I've learned that it's W.E.B. Du-boys. But the single most important thing to do is ask how to pronounce and keep trying to get it right. My wife's first name is a Mexican name with an ll in the middle that should be pronounced as j/y (most Spanish speakers don't really hear a difference between the two English…
So, it is really easy and almost no one manages to do it right even after instructions? And after failing to do it right after instructions, it is the other people who are arrogant for asking to use something they are able to pronounce, not you for insisting on making them uncomfortable? Names are just sounds people make when they want someones attention. Respect goes two ways.
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#448Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ng is a sound most Americans cannot make, including myself. I just say 'wen' now, which is a step up from my initial 'engooyin'.
The "ng" sound exists in English, it's just that we don't have it at the beginning of words like Vietnamese does. Say "singer", then say it again without the "si". Congratulations - you know how to pronounce a word that starts with "ng".
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#449Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds This. My name is a whimsical permutation of a Monacan name but I’m south Asian so it confuses the heck out of people. So I just go by Ray, which frankly is kind of a sketchy name, like “Trent” or “Chad.” But it’s easy to pronounce. It’s no big dea…
Monacan like the Native Americans, or like Monégasque?
Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers
#450People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…
What about rz, is it same as ř in Czech? Good luck with this letter to any native English speaker. :-))
Off the top of my head, the Polish language has lost the phonetic distinction between
rz and ż -> ż,
h and ch -> ch,
u and ó (flat u vs long o) -> u
In some regional dialects near southern/eastern borders you could still find some of these distinctions, but in modern Polish it's gone.
at a glance shit looks unnecessarily confusing especially for non-slavic foreigners, but once you look more into it explains many things and helps greatly with writing of related words, declination and conjugation, eg where grammar mandates sound substitution (assuming you are Czech you are probably aware of this effect already) For example there are clusters of sounds that often change one into another.
g/h/ż are one such cluster of closely related sounds
noga (leg, noun) vs nożny (adjective)
drugi (second) vs druh (friend, companion) drużba (guy helping the newlyweds with wedding)
Sapieha (noble name of Ukrainian origin) vs Sapieżanka (daughter of Sapieha)
rz/r:
drzewo (tree) vs drewno (wood)
ch/sz is another:
mucha (fly) -> muszka (diminutive)
ó/o/e is another:
bóg (god) vs bożek (lesser god)
pióro (feather) vs pierzyna (bed cover stuffed with feathers)
It also helps seeing similarities between Slavic languages, as this stuff preserves a ton of the common roots. Any Slav seeing 'góra' will know what's up, not so much with phonetically equivalent 'gura'.