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TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

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Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#161

Post by rsynnott »

nbevans wrote: post #104
fundatus wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the UK just willingly put up giant trade barriers with their biggest trading partner. Doesn't really scream "free trade" to most people outside the UK. There is a reason why annual foreign direct investment into the UK almost halved (!) after the Brexit referendum. Probably one of the main reasons why TSMC doesn't consider the UK for this. Also skilled immmigration to Germany is MUCH easier compared to the UK,…

The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present. And there is no tariffs on the vast majority of exports to the EU - and certainly not on semiconductors. FDI in 2020 was almost identical to France (albeit yes 2nd to France in 1st place) for Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-t... This is counter to your claims concerning FDI. I doubt it is "much easier" f…

> The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present.

I mean, largely true, but entirely irrelevant to someone planning a factory. That's a temporary situation that cannot realistically continue.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#162

Post by yorwba »

Max-20 wrote: post #106
nkmnz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got it wrong. The policies that heavily subsidized the solar industry were written by Merkel when she was the Minister for the Environmental Affairs in the 90s, but put in place by Minister Trittin from the Green Party after the '98 elections. The death of the German Solar industry was the result of KEEPING those subsidies TOO HIGH FOR TOO LONG. If the government makes sure that the demand is increasing at a very…

Thats sadly wrong, Chinas solar industry was heavily subsidized by the state to purposely crash the market prices of panels and ruin the solar industry of western countries. Once they succeeded they raised prices again to make profit.

Have prices actually increased? Lazard's Levelized Cost of Energy analysis shows a steady decline in cost https://www.lazard.com/media/451447/grphx_lcoe-09-09.jpg but that also includes operating costs. I can't find a source for the solar panels themselves.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#164

Post by rsynnott »

nbevans wrote: post #137
nbevans wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present. And there is no tariffs on the vast majority of exports to the EU - and certainly not on semiconductors. FDI in 2020 was almost identical to France (albeit yes 2nd to France in 1st place) for Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-t... This is counter to your claims concerning FDI. I doubt it is "much easier" f…

"No one (apart from Brexiters) cares that much about tariffs. EU tariffs are some of the lowest in the world - the average applied tariff for imports into the EU in 2019 was just 1.88%. Compare that to 6% for India or 13% for the US." Bizarre comment. You initiated it by suggesting the UK has erected "giant trade barriers" but then reply saying nobody cares about trade tariffs? And then immediately in the second sent…

As mentioned elsewhere, the tariff aren't the issue for most industries; non-tariff barriers are. I would think the UK's plan for a sort of parallel REACH regulation (REACH is the EU's chemical regulation) after the transition period ends would be particularly burdensome for the semiconductor industry.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#165

Post by noisy_boy »

MarcusE1W wrote: post #90
suction wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be true, but in Germany, the salary you pay to your employee is also about 1% of all the labor cost for him or her. Which is hyperbole, of course, but Germany is one of those countries where the actual net payout is usually significantly less than 50% of the salary the company provides. I'm not criticising it as I think Germany is a good example of a well-working system but net salaries are low for most.

It’s probably true that the net salary is lower than some other comparable countries, although Denmark for example has also a quite low net salary. I feel the important bit is what you get for the net salary deduction. In Germany you have: - Free Education including University - A decent mostly free health system, health care insurance - unemployment insurance so your life does not completely unravel if you are made…

I would be _ecstatic_ to give up half of my salary for such a system which assures that irrespective of my employment/financial status, age or health, I'll get the care I need, until I die.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#166

Post by f1refly »

RivieraKid wrote: post #123
martin_a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

My general impression is that Germany is not innovative, dynamic and backwards in technology among developed nations. For example: http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/17307.jpeg Also, they've made some seemingly stupid decisions such as closing nuclear power plants. And I'm not a fan of their climate change policy, they should push for a worldwide carbon tax instead of forcing EVs.

I don't know why you're under the impression technological backwardness has anything to do with abandoning cash. There's a lot of things to critizise the german government for - 16k broadband lines for newly built industrial parks anyone? - but not replacing cash is certainly not it.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#167

Post by nickik »

suction wrote: post #74
reader_mode wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Germany really stable considering Tesla story ? Chip making isn't clean by any standard.

The Tesla story had two sides - Tesla was aware about the high standards that would be applied to their factory, but somehow thought "we're Tesla so they'll create all kinds of exceptions for us if we pay the right politicians". Turns out not every country is as corrupt as Tesla's home country.

> we're Tesla so they'll create all kinds of exceptions for us if we pay the right politicians

Based on what? Tesla makes extensive use of an existing capability to move on development with per-approval.

They have not received any kind of politicians helping them to avoid bureaucracy that I know of. Some local politicians have talked in support but the bureaucracy is just moving at its normal pace.

I guess they paid a fine for installing a few tanks to early but that seems like a planning issue, not some kind of 'we gone install the 2 tanks because we have political backing'.

Its not like the plant is majorly behind.

> Turns out not every country is as corrupt as Tesla's home country.

Again, based on what? What corrupt thing did Tesla do in Texas that is so different? Texas doesn't require a public meeting for input but the overall process is not actually that different.

Maybe the standards are different, but it doesn't have anything to do with corruption.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#168

Post by corty »

yorwba wrote: post #162
Max-20 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats sadly wrong, Chinas solar industry was heavily subsidized by the state to purposely crash the market prices of panels and ruin the solar industry of western countries. Once they succeeded they raised prices again to make profit.

Have prices actually increased? Lazard's Levelized Cost of Energy analysis shows a steady decline in cost https://www.lazard.com/media/451447/grphx_lcoe-09-09.jpg but that also includes operating costs. I can't find a source for the solar panels themselves.

They just didn't decrase as fast as they could have, given falling prouction cost. But then again, the market was heavily distorted by German and Chinese subsidys anyways, so it is hard to know what the subsidy-free "real" market prices would have been.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#169

Post by realityking »

Akronymus wrote: post #143
MarcusE1W wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s probably true that the net salary is lower than some other comparable countries, although Denmark for example has also a quite low net salary. I feel the important bit is what you get for the net salary deduction. In Germany you have: - Free Education including University - A decent mostly free health system, health care insurance - unemployment insurance so your life does not completely unravel if you are made…

Even if you take the gross salaray it is MUCH lower than what the company actually pays. Last time I looked it up, the company pays about as much in insurance, taxes and such as your gross is.

That’s still an exaggeration. Non-wage labour costs are about 21% of the gross salary with most of them capped around 80k EUR of gross salary (meaning the employer pays 21% of 80k even if you make 200k). FWIW this includes health insurance.

Now you do you have to count with some other potential expenses, like covering up to 6 weeks paid sick leave. I’m spire there’s some rule of thumb how to average that over a workforce but I’m not aware of it.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#170

Post by nickik »

rsynnott wrote: post #93
reader_mode wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Germany really stable considering Tesla story ? Chip making isn't clean by any standard.

Tesla's problem, from the outside, looks like they didn't ask for expert advice, or ignored it if they got it. Which seems to be a recurring problem with Telsa in technical fields, but it's interesting that it comes up in business and regulatory fields.

What problem? What could they have avoid if they had asked experts? I have been following the process in a lot of detail, as I speak German. I have no idea what you are referring to.
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