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TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a great place to invest. So is most of Western Europe. The #1 thing you are looking for is _stability_ and a good engineering job market. Both is available. For this kind of automated high-tech manufacturing, nobody cares about salaries. They are <<1% of the cost.

Is Germany really stable considering Tesla story ? Chip making isn't clean by any standard.

But Tesla is the problem here, not Germany. Tesla is notorious for breaking government rules.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#102
post #85
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tesla story had two sides - Tesla was aware about the high standards that would be applied to their factory, but somehow thought "we're Tesla so they'll create all kinds of exceptions for us if we pay the right politicians". Turns out not every country is as corrupt as Tesla's home country.

Maybe. But I think all the politicians Tesla could have bought are already owned by their German competitors.

There aren't any competitors in the state, and there has been basically no politically influential pushback, so that line of argument doesn't really make sense.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a great place to invest. So is most of Western Europe. The #1 thing you are looking for is _stability_ and a good engineering job market. Both is available. For this kind of automated high-tech manufacturing, nobody cares about salaries. They are <<1% of the cost.

Is Germany really stable considering Tesla story ? Chip making isn't clean by any standard.

Chip making is relatively clean: sure, it uses nasty stuff, but it's nicely contained and cleanup/recycling is part of a fab. Fabs also aren't exactly a new thing in Germany (XFab, Globalfoundries (formerly AMD), ...)

And the Tesla story of ... Tesla getting quite generous permissions to rush-build a factory, Tesla rush-building the factory, sometimes going over what#s permitted and thus having some minor squabbles with the local authorities? That "story"?

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#104
post #57

I find it surprising that they are choosing Germany - after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there (embroiling it in so much red tape that Elon wishes he could pull out if it weren't for sunk cost). It seems that Germany has a very good ability to convince and lobby these mega-manufacturers to base themselves there, but a very poor ability to actually let them succeed after making that…

Well, the UK just willingly put up giant trade barriers with their biggest trading partner. Doesn't really scream "free trade" to most people outside the UK. There is a reason why annual foreign direct investment into the UK almost halved (!) after the Brexit referendum. Probably one of the main reasons why TSMC doesn't consider the UK for this. Also skilled immmigration to Germany is MUCH easier compared to the UK,…

The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present. And there is no tariffs on the vast majority of exports to the EU - and certainly not on semiconductors.

FDI in 2020 was almost identical to France (albeit yes 2nd to France in 1st place) for Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-t... This is counter to your claims concerning FDI.

I doubt it is "much easier" for skilled immigration - do you have anything to support that? How is it even measured?

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like that, but its highly unlikely :) Saxony is actively pushing towards becoming "Silicon Saxony". Munich established itself as a design hub.

Munich does have Infineon as well and it's closer to lots of the eventual customers in the automobile industry.

But is the automotive industry really the main customers for TSMC? Judging by all the news I read about the company, the main reason for the hype is that they are always on the bleeding edge of semiconductor manufacturing, which isn't usually something that you'd find in the automotive sector.

And assuming that the automotive industry is the target customer: Volkswagen has their biggest plant in Saxony, which is their main EV plant. Also, Saxony is reasonably close to Brandenburg where Tesla is currently building their factory.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#106
post #92
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew the Government mess up the solar market but I never knew just how much incompetence was at play there. Loosing industry to China (I am still furious about KUKA) is apparently a recreational sport for the CDU.

You got it wrong. The policies that heavily subsidized the solar industry were written by Merkel when she was the Minister for the Environmental Affairs in the 90s, but put in place by Minister Trittin from the Green Party after the '98 elections. The death of the German Solar industry was the result of KEEPING those subsidies TOO HIGH FOR TOO LONG. If the government makes sure that the demand is increasing at a very…

Thats sadly wrong, Chinas solar industry was heavily subsidized by the state to purposely crash the market prices of panels and ruin the solar industry of western countries. Once they succeeded they raised prices again to make profit.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#107
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to the solar companies in Germany?

We spent a lot of money on solar, lots of German companies started to fill the demand, the Chinese came in and dumped prices, Germany decided not to import-tax -> lots of German tax payer money spent on installing solar power, but all the German solar companies were priced out of the market by Chinese companies. Basically, Germany built Chinas solar industry, let our own die.

100%, sadly this is exactly how it played out.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#108
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that for a high-profile engineer or lead who expects to make 400k at least per year, the company would actually have to pay him 800k to make that much net. Labor cost in Germany is sky high. That times a thousand is not insignificant.

According to [1] if you make 400k a year your employer has to pay 413k in total [1] https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gehaltsrechner-...

no engineer makes 400k a year in Germany. This is not the US, sadly.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#109

If i were TCMS, i would not invest in Germany. But as a german, living in Germany, i am happy that they consider an investment in Germany.

Countries that have semi factories in Europe: Germany, Italy, France, Ireland, Netherlands, UK, Austria, Belgium, and Hungary (with different capabilities and sizes) So it would be natural that it ends on the countries with existing factories and expertise. The German (or even we might say, "north-european") self-deprecation gets old sometimes...

I have never heard of german self-deprecation. Do you have any examples of it?

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#110
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Germany really stable considering Tesla story ? Chip making isn't clean by any standard.

The Tesla story had two sides - Tesla was aware about the high standards that would be applied to their factory, but somehow thought "we're Tesla so they'll create all kinds of exceptions for us if we pay the right politicians". Turns out not every country is as corrupt as Tesla's home country.

Lofty talk from the home of VW AG.
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