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TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

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Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#121

Post by baybal2 »

bschne wrote: post #41
grlass wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the people who design many of the machines that TSMC use in their plants: ASML. "The mirrors guiding this light, made of sandwiched layers of silicon and molybdenum, are ground so precisely that, if scaled to the size of Germany, they would have no bumps bigger than a millimetre" https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/how-asml-becam... >

Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision — intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise. Or is it a matter of manufacturing it, testing it, and rejecting some percentage of things that don't fit your requirements due to imprecisions? Are there any good background resources…

> Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision

Scraping https://www.toyoda.com/news-events/rpd-blog-the-importance-o...

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#122

Post by volta83 »

FabHK wrote: post #119
volta83 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top technical talent scarcity and cost. In Silicon Valley, you can find a dozen 600k$ engineers relatively quickly to scale up a random startup. In Germany... the salaries these people would be making would be This disparity in the valuation of top engineers cause many to emigrate, and once you are in the US, it is impossible to financially justify taking a 5x pay cut to go back to Germany. (You can justify it "non-f…

You're saying in SV, they're 600k$, but in Germany they're only 100k$, but it would be 2x expensive to hire them? Why don't you pay 600k$ gross then, they get 300k$ net, and thus 3x what they'd get otherwise in Germany, but don't have to move to the US? Seems like a feasible strategy to me.

Paying somebody 300k/year doesn't make them "top talent".

The top talent is in the US, Taiwan, etc. designing the 3nm plants, operating the 5nm plants, doing research, etc.

Why would a 600k$/year engineer relocate from the US to Germany for a 300k$ salary pay cut ?

I've always made more money at my next job than the previous one.

If a company wants me to leave my life here behind and move 15000km, they better offer me more, like 700k$ or 800k$. In Germany, that would cost the company 1.6 million $ yearly.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#123

Post by RivieraKid »

martin_a wrote: post #6
alexanderklein wrote: post #2

If i were TCMS, i would not invest in Germany. But as a german, living in Germany, i am happy that they consider an investment in Germany.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

My general impression is that Germany is not innovative, dynamic and backwards in technology among developed nations.

For example: http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/17307.jpeg

Also, they've made some seemingly stupid decisions such as closing nuclear power plants. And I'm not a fan of their climate change policy, they should push for a worldwide carbon tax instead of forcing EVs.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#124

Post by wasmitnetzen »

corty wrote: post #85
suction wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tesla story had two sides - Tesla was aware about the high standards that would be applied to their factory, but somehow thought "we're Tesla so they'll create all kinds of exceptions for us if we pay the right politicians". Turns out not every country is as corrupt as Tesla's home country.

Maybe. But I think all the politicians Tesla could have bought are already owned by their German competitors.

I don't think there is any other car factory in Brandenburg. So there would only be interference from the federal level down. Which wouldn't matter that much in my opinion.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#125

Post by nbevans »

MarcusE1W wrote: post #100
nbevans wrote: post #57

I find it surprising that they are choosing Germany - after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there (embroiling it in so much red tape that Elon wishes he could pull out if it weren't for sunk cost). It seems that Germany has a very good ability to convince and lobby these mega-manufacturers to base themselves there, but a very poor ability to actually let them succeed after making that…

By strong political will to remove barriers you mean that certain politicians with the right motives (whatever that might be) are willing to wave any legal barriers ? Not sure I see this as a good thing. And with regards to political whims, From the outside it seems that is the specialty of the UK right now. Right now, in my view the UK does not look like a stable international partner, it could go in any direction,…

Remove barriers - as in, get the planning permits issued, provide necessary tax or subsidy incentives etc, all the standard stuff that goes on when attracting a mega-manufacturer such as TSMC.

You are based in London so your view of the UK's international perception is probably about as useless as mine (also based in London). Taiwan and the UK have good relations - arguably better than Taiwan / EU - there is a longer term geopolitical instability with the EU more recently tilting towards Russia (Nordstream) and China (controversial investment deal signed in January) - whilst the UK is shying away from both. Political whims, indeed.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#126

Post by corty »

detaro wrote: post #102
corty wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. But I think all the politicians Tesla could have bought are already owned by their German competitors.

There aren't any competitors in the state, and there has been basically no politically influential pushback, so that line of argument doesn't really make sense.

There is no overt pushback. That doesn't mean that there is none. And the presence and activity of the usual environmental NIMBY organisations like Deutsche Umwelthilfe, NABU, BUND, etc. point to at least some covert opposition, since those organisations happily serve as fronts for non-environmental interests.

And state politics, especially in the east, is rife with people using it as a stepping stone to the federal level. Famously there once were more prime ministers from the west governing the east than eastern-born ones.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#128

Post by [deleted] »

artemonster wrote: post #63
hans1729 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is positioned excellently for chip production, why would you consider that a bad investment?

its not. you have to have _TEST HOUSES_ nearby. and this would mean, like for most of germany semiconductor output, that these wafers are flown to china for testing & assembly.

[deleted]

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#129

Post by LatteLazy »

A lot of people seem to think (high, German) Labour costs matter in this desicion. I don't think they do. If TSCM hires someone 1% better than the other guy, he makes them millions more with a better design/brighter idea etc. So paying 50% more on his salary is very affordable. That's the difference between a high tech company and amazon, Walmart etc.

Germany seems like exactly the place I'd look for a highly educated workforce and one with a strong engineering culture. AND a place where workers will stay for a lifetime not just jump ship every 24months or take a fat cheque from China to move there and build them a TSCM copy.

I'd be more worried about German pollution, health and safety etc laws, as this is a dirty industry. And I'd be more worried about getting a big chunk of land and planning permission.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#130

Post by fundatus »

nbevans wrote: post #104
fundatus wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the UK just willingly put up giant trade barriers with their biggest trading partner. Doesn't really scream "free trade" to most people outside the UK. There is a reason why annual foreign direct investment into the UK almost halved (!) after the Brexit referendum. Probably one of the main reasons why TSMC doesn't consider the UK for this. Also skilled immmigration to Germany is MUCH easier compared to the UK,…

The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present. And there is no tariffs on the vast majority of exports to the EU - and certainly not on semiconductors. FDI in 2020 was almost identical to France (albeit yes 2nd to France in 1st place) for Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-t... This is counter to your claims concerning FDI. I doubt it is "much easier" f…

No one (apart from Brexiters) cares that much about tariffs. EU tariffs are some of the lowest in the world - the average applied tariff for imports into the EU in 2019 was just 1.88%. Compare that to 6% for India or 13% for the US. What really matters are non-tariff-barriers - and this is where the EU really excels. After all, that is what it was build for.

FDI into the UK fell from 101,241m to just 59,137m USD in 2019. Your article doesn't look at the value of the investments but just the number of projects.

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