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Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

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Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#241

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

I get what you mean and agree with the broad point, but I really, truly do both want to learn more about foreign languages and also feel it is both polite and good culture to try to pronounce the names of long-term colleagues as well as I can. I love foreign languages, I love Korean consonants, I love German Vowels, I love the French Schwa.

I wouldn't want to put that on anyone to explain when obviously I can just get more foreign language tapes, but I do actually legitimately prefer to get it right if I can, and the process of learning to say it right is super fun... but I've spent my whole life having to spell and pronounce my name for everyone so it just doesn't seem like a big deal.

But yeah, I can see it getting annoying. I definitely wouldn't insist on it over a casual " is fine" but I do want to learn to do better at things if I can!

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#242
post #206
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the original sound quality of ⟨v⟩ in Latin was also /w/ IIRC, there wasn't a U letter in Latin, so the vowel was written as V. I guess it tended to souns like W when starting a syllabe, as in versus.

> there wasn't a U letter in Latin Yup they used V for both. This is probably why German (and then Polish) uses W instead of V - to distinguish it from U.

When the Latin alphabet was first used in Old English, Latin w had already come to be pronounced v. The was no need for it in English at that stage, because v was just considered a variant of f.

But English made good use of w, and there were two ways of writing the w sound: either as two u's (because that way you can indicate the consonantalness of it, even before consonants as in writan) or using the old rune wynn. The uu approach spread to the continent and Old High German (which still used the English sound) adopted it. Old High German also didn't have a v sound at that time, and v was considered a variant of f - which it still is in modern German (e.g. Vater = father, pronounced fah-ta). Meanwhile, uu fell out of use in England, and the runic wynn dominated. But the English spelling system was gradually replaced following the Norman invasion, which led w to dominate over wynn. And v was now considered its own sound, so the letter began to be used for a v sound. So even though English seems to be a bit of a exception, with w=/w/, it's a practice that came from England and came back to England and was a medieval norm.

But the w sound changed to v in German too. They didn't have such a radical interruption to their orthographic tradition as the English did, so the idea that V=F remained, and the letter w just come to be used for the new v sound. It spread from there.

So it's not really w instead of v to distinguish /v/ from /u/. It's more w instead of v to distinguish /w/ from v=/f/.

The crazy thing about that is it wasn't until several centuries after all that transpired that v and u became separate letters. So the Germans were using u for the sound of Buch and the sound of Uater (=Vater), and a different letter w for the sound of Wasser, when W and U=Buch were very similar and U=Buch and U=Vater were very different.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#243

People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…

> pronounced as in 'put'/'dude'. FYI: "put" and "dude" have a different vowel sound in most dialects of English.

Yeah, that's why you can hear 'polish/slavic accent' because it's hard for us to say it differently

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#244

It always puzzles me how little knowledge of foreign languages the average English native speaker has. Every time I hear an English speaker trying to pronounce Italian or Spanish words it generally ends up in a complete disaster (especially Italian). For instance, lots of folks haven't realized that the Great Vowel Shift happened, and so try to pronounce vowels as in English, without realizing that 99% of cases, that…

I’d be interested in some examples for both, if you could! I’m a stupid/ignorant English speaker, because I only know English and German so can’t pronounce Italian intuitively.

Italian is somewhat simple to pronounce (probably it is not, but I like believing that).

- The cardinal rule is that EVERY SINGLE LETTER MUST BE READ. We don't write unnecessary stuff, we don't eat letters like in French.

- The only exception is the letter h, which we use sparingly by itself as a Latin leftover, and is ALWAYS silent. Like "ho" and "o" sound the same.

- there are only 7 vowels (English has around 16? 17?), and no "weird" consonants.

- E and O have two allophones, but everyone in Italy has a different accent so it's quite irrelevant how you pronounce them as long as it's a "boring" E and O, like in the English "eh". The O sound is especially difficult for English speakers, because O is almost always pronounced like "ou" /oʊ/. Just try to drop the /ʊ/ part. Italian vowels are boring and plain. They don't sound fancy or complicated. They are barebones and flat.

- In general, 1 letter = 1 sound. This is quite a hard rule, and it's rarely broken.

- There's a few gotchas to this, like [gn] and [gl] which sound like the Spanish [ñ] and [ll] respectively¹.

- [gh] is always a hard g, like in English "get". [gi] and [ge] are _always_ soft Gs, like the one in the English word "justice". The same applies to [c]: [ch] is hard (read it as k), [ci]/[ce] are like in "cherry".

- [l] is never dark, while in English it often is. L in Italian always sounds the same, /l/, as in "litter".

- Syllables are not as stressed as in English. English has this tendency to "squish" one part of a word together and then slow down at the end. Italian usually has a quite "constant" tempo, with a bigger emphasis on the "accent", which is a stress put on a specific syllable.

The biggest hurdle IMHO for English speakers are geminated sounds (i.e. double letters), which do not exist _at all_ AFAIK in English, and that are often fundamental to distinguish words in Italian. It's something conceptually similar to what Japanese go through when they learn English and discover that so many words require a distinction between /r/ and /l/, like right and light.

For instance, "pollo" means chicken, while "polo" is pole. An English speaker will usually pronounce them the same.

It's also important to remember that English went through the Great Vowel Shift, so it's whole alphabet is now way more messed up compared to basically every other language that uses the Latin alphabet. Also, the Latin alphabet was designed around the phonology of Latin, so it's very good at representing Italian phonetically, while quite bad to represent Germanic languages (way too many vowels). Given that you know German, you can use the German reading of vowel letters with Italian, and it would probably work better than the English one. German also has lots of vowels, but they tend to write them closer to how Romance languages do (so A is /a/, e is /e/, ...)

¹ [gl] sounds /ʎ/ only when followed by i, like in "sceglie". Otherwise, it sounds like /gl/ like in English "glue"

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#245

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

I have an strategy of two pronunciations for my name (Jaime, it's a Spanish name): - Quick chats, like answering your name at Starbucks, talking with the electric company on the phone, etc. I use directly the English pronunciation of my name (like Jamie). It's faster, easier and who cares, frankly... Gratefully, I can now use "wrote as Lanister" and fix some writing problems - With more meaningful relationships, like…

Same boat here. Vicente in Spanish so I go by Vincent most of the time (either the english or the French pronounciations, I don't care). Most people see my name in Spanish and pronounce it like it was Italian ("Vinchente", they always add an N). I've never been bothered by it one bit, at least they tried. For the curious, the correct pronounciation is either "Vee-sen-teh" or with the spanish voiceless-dental-fricative θ[1] "Vee-θen-teh".

If you ever bought into this idea that mispronouncing someone's unfamiliar/foreign name is somehow rude or racist or an extension of white supremacy/privilege, you should see how english names and surnames are pronounced in non-english speaking countries. People give it their best shot and fail, that's all there is to it.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#246
post #125
post #8

"Non-English" -> Mainland Chinese. Well, it's a start I guess. Probably worth adding Vietnamese considering how few people in the US know how to pronounce "Nguyen".

Ng is a sound most Americans cannot make, including myself. I just say 'wen' now, which is a step up from my initial 'engooyin'.

The "ng" sound exists in English, it's just that we don't have it at the beginning of words like Vietnamese does.

Say "singer", then say it again without the "si". Congratulations - you know how to pronounce a word that starts with "ng".

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#247

People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…

Now practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaMcIbIWt_4

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last name is French, but in reality the name comes from Germany. My family has been pronouncing it incorrectly for 100 years, and I … just don’t care enough to enforce the correct pronunciation. It feels snobbish to me, like you said. Might be an artifact of being an American.

> My family has been pronouncing it incorrectly Well, the French usage for names generally is just to use either a straight French pronunciation based on how the name is written, or an approximation of the foreign pronunciation using sounds that exist in French. Only a handful of well-known names get to have a special pronunciation. If your family has been in France for 100 years, I wouldn't say they pronounce the na…

This reminds me of the story of the town of Versailles, Indiana.

It was common knowledge nearby that anyone who came in and pronounced it "ver-sai" was from out of town. Because everyone living there called it "ver-sails".

I use this as an example of how if anyone gets to decide how something is pronounced, it's the people who live there. The city is simply called "ver-sails" and that's all there is to it.

It is not "wrong", anymore than pronouncing it as you likely say "karate" is not more wrong than "ka-ra-te" (the japanese pronunciation) or that the japanese prounciation of the english word "sweater" being "su-we-ta" is wrong. Borrowed word pronunciation is entirely up to the user.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#249

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

Thanks, I have the same problem - I'm an Eastern European living in the UK, must've heard my name pronounced correctly (just from someone seeing it written down) maybe 3 times in 9 years. But I actively avoid telling people the correct pronunciation because it's not in anyone's interest (unless they're a close friend, I guess). I never understood why someone would selfishly expect a stranger to pronounce their name c…

[deleted]

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be interested in some examples for both, if you could! I’m a stupid/ignorant English speaker, because I only know English and German so can’t pronounce Italian intuitively.

Italian is somewhat simple to pronounce (probably it is not, but I like believing that). - The cardinal rule is that EVERY SINGLE LETTER MUST BE READ. We don't write unnecessary stuff, we don't eat letters like in French. - The only exception is the letter h, which we use sparingly by itself as a Latin leftover, and is ALWAYS silent. Like "ho" and "o" sound the same. - there are only 7 vowels (English has around 16?…

There are some geminated sounds in English, mostly in compounds e.g. "roommate", "midday", "misspell".
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