Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#171

Post by mkotowski » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:11 AM UTC

ithinkso wrote: post #166

ajuc wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup Polish is actually quite regular in pronunciation, there are very few exceptions and only about a dozen rules to remember to be able to pronounce any word. The reputation comes from different conventions. In English letter+h is the escape code (gh, th, sh, ch) in Polish it's letter+z (rz,sz,cz,dz,dż,dź,dzi). Especially vowels are much easier than in English. Each vowel in Polish maps to exactly one sound and vice…

>There actually are exceptions, but they are regular as well - w before last syllable is often devoiced to f. Levandofski. But even most Polish speakers doesn't know that it's the rule, they just speak that way without thinking :) Well, true, but I don't think devoicing w in 'Levandofski' is correct, sounds a bit sloppy but hard to hear the distinction to be honest so maybe There is though a clear devoicing not only…

Wszystko and Lewandowski both are subjected to the same principle, namely: in Polish consonant clusters, including across a word boundary, the obstruents are all voiced or all voiceless.[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_phonology#Voicing_and_d...

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#172

Post by mkotowski » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:13 AM UTC

smcl wrote: post #152

ithinkso wrote: post #115

People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…

> It's the same sound as in 'when'/'why'/'when' Note: this is ONLY applicable if your "wh" is non-aspirated. If you pronounce Łukasz as "Whookash" you're going to get some funny looks :) I'd have written this as "It's the same sound as in 'wise' or 'weather'"

Also, if we are talking about aspiration, word-initial p and t are also left un-aspirated in Polish, contrary to many (most?) English dialects.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#173

Post by 22c » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:13 AM UTC

darkwater wrote: post #151

mc32 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinyin is pretty close. At least it's predictable. Wade-Giles is way off -well, I guess it was based off Cantonese? In any case, my pet peeve is people expecting speakers of English to accommodate foreign sounds, but not extending the same ask to foreign speakers who often mangle English name sounds just as much. I say just let them say it however they know how and let it be. I don't mind if they can't pronounce my n…

> In any case, my pet peeve is people expecting speakers of English to accommodate foreign sounds, but not extending the same ask to foreign speakers who often mangle English name sounds just as much. Sorry... what? Us non native speaker live in a world where English is taught in almost any school on the planet and where you have a peer pressure to know and speak decently English. This on top of one of the most irreg…

As a native English speaker, for the most part I typically know what someone means when they say "gl-OW-kester square" or "Green-witch mean time", so don't worry about it.

I have a Russian friend who has specifically asked me to go out of my way to correct their mispronunciations, but for the most part if someone says an English word in a weird I don't even blink.

I'd say part of being an effective English communicator is not just about speaking English, but also about being able to understand foreign English accents (and I include different dialects of native English in that as well).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#174

Post by narag » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:14 AM UTC

ithinkso wrote: post #115

People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…

'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anything else

I've been interacting with a Polish web and got very confused because what happens with stand-alone w, that seems to mean in. Indeed Google Translate pronounces it as a v. First time I see a word in any language that consists only of consonants :-m

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#175

Post by Veen » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:14 AM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #165

ithinkso wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, could you elaborate on the difference in 'w' between 'wise' and 'when'? I'd say 'Wookash' as in star-wars 'Wookie' is a good way (way, hehe) to say Łukasz. I'm not a linguist though so I'm curious

Some English speakers pronounce "w" differently than "wh". They will say sth that sounds like "hwhen" instead of "when" for example. I think it's a dialect thing I only met like 5 people online who spoke like that but they were all native English speakers so it must be correct?

It’s “correct” but quite rare. The wh was originally a digraph pronounced with a voiceless labial–velar, but but most variants of English have undergone what linguists call the whine-wine merger so those words sound the same. Exceptions are Scots, Irish, and some Southern US varieties.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#176

Post by ajuc » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:15 AM UTC

Veen wrote: post #175

ajuc wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some English speakers pronounce "w" differently than "wh". They will say sth that sounds like "hwhen" instead of "when" for example. I think it's a dialect thing I only met like 5 people online who spoke like that but they were all native English speakers so it must be correct?

It’s “correct” but quite rare. The wh was originally a digraph pronounced with a voiceless labial–velar, but but most variants of English have undergone what linguists call the whine-wine merger so those words sound the same. Exceptions are Scots, Irish, and some Southern US varieties.

The guys I met are from Canada.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#177

Post by ithinkso » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:16 AM UTC

mkotowski wrote: post #171

ithinkso wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There actually are exceptions, but they are regular as well - w before last syllable is often devoiced to f. Levandofski. But even most Polish speakers doesn't know that it's the rule, they just speak that way without thinking :) Well, true, but I don't think devoicing w in 'Levandofski' is correct, sounds a bit sloppy but hard to hear the distinction to be honest so maybe There is though a clear devoicing not only…

Wszystko and Lewandowski both are subjected to the same principle, namely: in Polish consonant clusters, including across a word boundary, the obstruents are all voiced or all voiceless.[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_phonology#Voicing_and_d...

Yup, thanks, that's the rule.

I think I should change the 99.99% in my original post to 98%

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#178

Post by narag » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

mkotowski wrote: post #167

ithinkso wrote: post #115

People are giving pronunciation tips for other languages in the comments, here are tips for polish. Polish often seems incomprehensible for english speakers because of the sheer amount of consonants though it actually flows quite nicely if you know the rules 'sz', 'cz' - those are equivalent to 'sh' (shop,shell) and 'ch' (chop, check) 'w' - it's a hard 'v' as in 'very', 'vary'. Always, no exceptions and never anythin…

To elaborate on ⟨ł⟩ – there is quite a good reason for the way it is spelled. Originally, its pronunciation was /ɫ/ (“dark l” in English) so it was very close to /l/ in sound quality. It evolved to /w/ over time. During the first part of 20th century, it was already used only in dialects and by professionals such as actors and singers (because of it, it is also called “scenic ł” — „sceniczne ł”). Ironically, if I rem…

the original sound quality of ⟨v⟩ in Latin was also /w/

IIRC, there wasn't a U letter in Latin, so the vowel was written as V. I guess it tended to souns like W when starting a syllabe, as in versus.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#179

Post by ajuc » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:19 AM UTC

mkotowski wrote: post #171

ithinkso wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There actually are exceptions, but they are regular as well - w before last syllable is often devoiced to f. Levandofski. But even most Polish speakers doesn't know that it's the rule, they just speak that way without thinking :) Well, true, but I don't think devoicing w in 'Levandofski' is correct, sounds a bit sloppy but hard to hear the distinction to be honest so maybe There is though a clear devoicing not only…

Wszystko and Lewandowski both are subjected to the same principle, namely: in Polish consonant clusters, including across a word boundary, the obstruents are all voiced or all voiceless.[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_phonology#Voicing_and_d...

I wonder if there is a rule that lets people get away with "Lewandoski" :)

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#180

Post by Kiro » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:19 AM UTC

I don't want my name to be pronounced natively outside my native language. It would feel strange. I very much prefer the English bastardisation of it, which fits better in an English sentence.