Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#161

Post by aww_dang » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

beckman466 wrote: post #133

aww_dang wrote: post #23

Is there an argument for not having Amazon as an employer in these towns? Is there an argument for not having Amazon support the local school system? I understand that working conditions are rarely ideal. Many would prefer to enjoy leisure and collect a paycheck as the ideal source of income. Jobs pay because workers need an incentive to provide labor. What exactly would JacobinMag.com's alternative to Amazon employm…

> Is there an argument for not having Amazon as an employer in these towns? > Why aren't they providing this alternative? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy#Perfect_soluti ... Why are you opposed to this critique? You can offer critique without needing to provide alternatives. From your questions it sounds like you yourself are falling victim to the 'just world fallacy'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus…

Employees work for Amazon because it is an improvement over their current situation. If it wasn't an improvement, they wouldn't take the job. Whether they deserve it or not is something the employee has to evaluate, along with the subjective valuation of their labor.

If there's an alternative where employees could earn more for less labor, that might be a good opportunity to explore. Not just for the employees, but any potential entrepreneurs as well.

There are several areas where I feel critical of Amazon's policies. Voluntary employment isn't one of them.

Nor am I a fan of the public education system. If I found myself in that situation, it would be a teachable moment.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#162

Post by tmpz22 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #159

0x262d wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

political and class ambivalence is also a way to spin things. which the original comment itself did. this is a navel-gazing, meaningless criticism. if you disagree substantively you should just say so.

Class ambivalence? Who is upper class here? Jeff Bezos? He was born to single mother out of wedlock in highschool. Or is class something you can buy your way into now?

And yet his parents were able to slide him a cool quarter million to start Amazon without breaking a sweat.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#163

Post by Sharlin » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #113

Sharlin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a peon^Wworker's point of view, there may not be much of a difference between a medieval fiefdom and a 19th century company town. The term "robber baron" is apt.

There was enormous difference. For one thing, workers in company towns were free to quit and move somewhere else, while medieval peasants could not.

In theory, anyway. Being legally permitted to do something is a really low bar to clear. Even now, in the era of cheap transportation and free real-time information to base your decisions on, for the majority of working-class families the idea of packing up and trying again somewhere else is less than feasible. In the 1800s? Not a fscking chance, even if your employee was gracious enough to pay you with hard currency rather than Monopoly (heh) money. No cars. Trains were expensive and only an option in some places. No Internet, TV, or even radio. No formal education to speak of. Wages at subsistence levels, because why would they pay you a penny more?

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#164

Post by 0x262d » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #159

0x262d wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

political and class ambivalence is also a way to spin things. which the original comment itself did. this is a navel-gazing, meaningless criticism. if you disagree substantively you should just say so.

Class ambivalence? Who is upper class here? Jeff Bezos? He was born to single mother out of wedlock in highschool. Or is class something you can buy your way into now?

Bezos' profits on the basis of how much work his employees do, minus how much he pays them. that's what class is. it's pretty hard to deny it exists.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#165

Post by friedman23 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

0x262d wrote: post #164

friedman23 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Class ambivalence? Who is upper class here? Jeff Bezos? He was born to single mother out of wedlock in highschool. Or is class something you can buy your way into now?

Bezos' profits on the basis of how much work his employees do, minus how much he pays them. that's what class is. it's pretty hard to deny it exists.

That's being rich not upper class. There is a difference.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#166

Post by iratewizard » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

GoodJokes wrote: post #123

JCM9 wrote: post #48

Like a lot of these stories there’s lots of ways to spin reality. Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.” Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.

Companies don’t provide jobs. People provide labor and companies exploit said labor for profit.

Companies exploit people. People exploit their employers. People exploit each other. People exploit themselves.

Midwit theories of Utopia always seem to single in on one thing they can turn into a boogieman, and ignore the rest of the complex system.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#167

Post by anm89 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

Jacobin finds the act of running a for profit business under any circumstances to be unethical so does it really matter what they have to say past that?

Jacobin is left Breitbart.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#168

Post by username90 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

GoodJokes wrote: post #123

JCM9 wrote: post #48

Like a lot of these stories there’s lots of ways to spin reality. Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.” Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.

Companies don’t provide jobs. People provide labor and companies exploit said labor for profit.

Labour without a job is almost useless. People with the ability to figure out good use of labour is the limiting factor, not labour itself. And it is really hard to get enough value out of labour to pay modern salaries.

If you disagree, why don't you just hire people yourself and tell them to do stuff? Easy money from exploiting labour, no?

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#169

Post by katbyte » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #144

jsjsbdkj wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Benefits only work if there's a large population where the risks can be averaged out. If you let people pick and choose whether they want insurance, people with known health problems will overwhelmingly want insurance, and the price will be driven up. Really this shouldn't be dealt with at the employer level but by the government - there's a net public good to everyone having guaranteed healthcare, because preventati…

I 100% agree that adverse selection is a problem, but the government's rule doesn't really fix it. All that happened is that people with known health problems will look harder for full-time jobs, and healthier people will take the part-time jobs that pay slightly more per hour.

? If healthcare/benefits is provided by the government from taxes outside of your job then it doesn’t matter if you have a full/part time job?

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#170

Post by anm89 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

GoodJokes wrote: post #123

JCM9 wrote: post #48

Like a lot of these stories there’s lots of ways to spin reality. Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.” Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.

Companies don’t provide jobs. People provide labor and companies exploit said labor for profit.

I love how simply framing a concept that 99.9% of the population is ok with in Marxist language is supposed to make people recoil in horror.

If you want to call it exploitation than call it exploitation. I'm fine with exploitation if the definition of exploitation is "jobs"