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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#481
post #411
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SAT is an extremely high predictor for IQ. It correlates incredibly well. I grew up in a trailer park, and didn't have access to the test prep industry, so I understand that wealthier kids had a big edge. That being said, nobody is talking about the SAT being biased against poor kids. They are pretending that it's purely a racist, culturally-biased test due to its outcome of having average scores that are hundred…

Plenty of people recognize that the SAT is bias against poor kids https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/07/why-po... The reason that the racial component comes out is that Black children are over-represented in poor communities due to systemic racism

The confidence with which you assert "systemic racism" as being the key factor causing Black kids to be overrepresented in poor communities is fascinating. Historical racism, which was woven into law, is the actual reason for this. Historical factors are also why White southerners are overrepresented in poverty statistics compared to Whites in the midwest and New England.

Historical racism isn't the same thing as the nebulous, impossible to define "systemic" racism, which basically means whatever the activist group pushing it wants it to mean. Typically, they look at any discrepancy in outcomes between two groups, ignore the complex multi-variate nature of said issue, and reduce it down to race, making the claim of "systemic" racism. The vast majority of CS grads from universities are males, but you never see this mentioned in claims of "systemic sexism" in the tech industry. Gender activism, like race activism, only goes in one direction, always.

The same activist groups tend to ignore factors such as 50% of all murders in the US being perpetrated by, and victimizing, Black Americans. This kind of statistic is inconvenient for their narrative of police deliberately arresting people based on race, vs. the fact that they commit crimes disproportionately. Also, constantly cited is the discrepancy in crack penalties vs. cocaine penalties. This ignores the fact that crack and meth (a drug used predominantly by Whites) have equivalently harsh penalties, and also ignores the fact that these harsh penalties were demanded and campaigned for by Black politicians in the 90's, reacting to the destruction of their communities by the crack epidemic. There is a clear record of this, as evidenced by Joe Biden being a huge proponent of the Crime Bill. He and other Democrats were being urged to push the Crime Bill by his own party's Black politicians.

Growing up in the rural south in a trailer park, the subculture of White people I belong to commit crimes at vastly higher rates than Whites in other parts of the country. They are arrested and shot by police at equally higher rates as well. Again, the low-resolution, activist driven narrative ignores all of this, treating White people in New York City and in Kentucky as being part of a homogenous group, instead of correctly identifying the vast cultural differences between the two going back to the completely different European cultures they are descended from (Dutch/wealthy English vs. dirt poor Ulster Scots emigrants).

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall hearing in casual conversation "ohh this guy is Asian and went to X so you know he's good". I was shocked. It must create a weird dynamic to have two identifiable groups where you know one got there on merit alone, while the other one maybe benefited from a quota.

Absolutely. This is one of the reasons affirmative action is poisonous—it creates rational reasons for discrimination. Which will, of course, be exaggerated by actual racists; but it's much harder to argue "Discriminating against group X is bad" when it's public knowledge that group X has passed a lower bar.

Affirmative action doesn't require a lower bar. Why do people keep saying that? It's also been banned in California since the 90s.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#483
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're Asian, in which case declaring your race will lower your admission chances even relative to white people.

I recall hearing in casual conversation "ohh this guy is Asian and went to X so you know he's good". I was shocked. It must create a weird dynamic to have two identifiable groups where you know one got there on merit alone, while the other one maybe benefited from a quota.

Funny story in Malaysia it's well known that if you get sick you want a Chinese doctor because the Malaysian government discriminates heavily against the Chinese, and thus the ones that actually become doctors are only the elite.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#484
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people recognize that the SAT is bias against poor kids https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/07/why-po... The reason that the racial component comes out is that Black children are over-represented in poor communities due to systemic racism

SAT results correlate highly with IQ, and IQ correlates highly with success in life. Still, people engage in all kinds of postmodern mental gymnastics to explain why an intuitively obvious fact is somehow false.

Your statement immediately has a problem. How do you define success? Then you have a second problem when you state a person taking one test is also good on a different test.

Going much over 100 has little correlation with wealth which is what most studies use. Then you run into correlation doesn’t equal causation problem too.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not even counted as "diverse" (because I'm not black or hispanic) despite coming from a muslim family and middle eastern background. I can only select "white", though I'm not white white. Should that even matter for admission purposes?

This article is specifically about the UC system, which has been banned by Proposition 209 since 1996 from considering an applicant's race when making admissions decisions. It might matter at private schools or in other states, though. It might surprise people who only know California by reputation and assume it is completely full of raging lefties, but affirmative action measures have been pretty soundly rejected by…

That's because Richard Sander from UCLA Law has demonstrated fairly well that there's a really good chance that affirmative action is a net negative for those it's trying to help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sander

They should oppose it because it likely harms black people.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually had a few Pacific Islanders express anxiety with selecting "Asian American/Pacific Islander" because they were worried that identifying as such would subject them to more competition. They were advised to do it anyways.

I read somewhere says "Asian American/Pacific Islander" is a totally made up term by the federal government and basically has no root in reality.

The long shared history between Fijians and Turks is sadly not taught in US schools.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read somewhere says "Asian American/Pacific Islander" is a totally made up term by the federal government and basically has no root in reality.

All human “races” are social constructs with no basis in reality other than the social perceptions of the group delineating them. So, yeah, that's true of API, but its just as true of, say, White.

There are most certainly meaningful genetic clusters in human populations. You can call these races or something else but to assert that differences between human populations only extend to a few superficial traits like skin tone is just ignorant and silly. For example there is a meaninful genetic reason why some sub-saharan populations have a higher incidence of sickle cell anaemia than Irish people or why most of those with native American heritage are less able to tolerate alcohol than Europeans.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. This is one of the reasons affirmative action is poisonous—it creates rational reasons for discrimination. Which will, of course, be exaggerated by actual racists; but it's much harder to argue "Discriminating against group X is bad" when it's public knowledge that group X has passed a lower bar.

Affirmative action doesn't require a lower bar. Why do people keep saying that? It's also been banned in California since the 90s.

[deleted]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#489

It may sound noble to increase admissions for "marginalized" demographics into the most prestigious universities that California has to offer. But this has the real implication of setting these students up for failure. California's UCs demand the utmost of studious conduct. The SAT is one of the best ways of determining whether a student will succeed in such environments. But with the removal of it, we will see an in…

> Math will be too complex. Literature will be difficult to comprehend.

Do you think they’re pulling random kids off the street and shoving them into Harvard? Even the lowest achieving students admitted to elite schools were at absolute minimum inside the nation’s top quartile.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#490
post #386

Cancelling SAT (especially subject exams) is the stupidest decision I've seen anywhere. Make access more fair? Sure. Cancel it? Plain wrong! How do I know? I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams --- those subjects were genuinely interesting to me (math, science). I didn't find the rest of high school interesting, and I wasn't a nerd nerd studying anything…

Deciding whether or not the SAT is equitable, fair, or valuable shouldn't have any anecdotal component. For every one person with a story like yours, there is someone who had a bad experience with it for reasons outside of their control. I did exceptionally well in take home or book assignments because I understand the subject matter, but never was a good test taker. I took the ACT and did 'fine' but I could have don…

> At the end of the day, tests like the ACT/SAT will always privilege people who can afford to spend more time on it. Lots of kids do better because their parents spend thousands on tutoring.

This i true, but the effect is small. The studies I've seen mentioned say 50-100 points.

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