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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#421

Post by TchoBeer »

charlesju wrote: post #154
threatofrain wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming implies that your metrics are being ruined by moving towards an opposite effect, not that they fail to be perfect. Similarly, doing well in the IMO could be a predictor of wealth and circumstance, but it's also a signal for math talent. If we're saying that AP tests and classes are too easy, then of course people can have a discussion about increasing difficulty.

All I know is there are trivial AP classes like AP Government, AP Econ, AP Art, AP Computer Science, etc. at my school. Almost everyone got an A and a 4 or 5 on the test.

In 2021, Under 50% of students got a 4/5 on compsci, econ (both of them), gov, and Art. The only thing which can charitably be included is AP drawing, which about 52% got a 4 or above. The high scores in your classes have more to do with school quality than anything else.

Stats from https://www.totalregistration.net/AP-Exam-Registration-Servi...

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#422

Post by filoleg »

ikiris wrote: post #303
Aunche wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also just hire tutors to help you with coursework. How is the SAT different in that aspect?

Yes yes, have them do it at your lake house during the derby my good sport. You can even take more time if you have your chef prepare you meals so you can study through!

What? You are missing the point completely.

The parent comment is saying that with the SAT removal, the only hard number the admissions officers have left to use is GPA. And GPA is just as gameable, if not even moreso than SAT scores, for kids with wealthy parents.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#423

Post by zozbot234 »

tdhz77 wrote: post #378
xwdv wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Any attributes like race and gender should play no consideration in a fair admissions process. It should not even be public information.

The color blind thinking modal has a long history of helping the majority stay the majority. What you propose is to continuing allow the status quo, which has already by statistical aggregation of college entrance proved to allow under performing “whites” in. Have you not seen the news where Aunt Becky got her kid in? Without tough affirmative action rules, Aunt becky’s kids get in and your kids don’t. This thinking…

> Have you not seen the news where Aunt Becky got her kid in? Without tough affirmative action rules, Aunt becky’s kids get in and your kids don’t.

This whole controversy is about a handful of the most elite schools in the nation. I find it more than a bit silly tbh, since whatever admissions policy they choose it's not going to be even close to affecting "the majority" of prospective students. We should be working to expand access to education at every level, not just focusing on such a tiny minority.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#424

Post by zdragnar »

failwhaleshark wrote: post #200
zdragnar wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What your scenarios describe are students who are not ready / prepared to do as well as their peers in college. You cannot resolve prior inequities by forcing students into college- they drop out at higher rates, with higher (unforgivable!) debts, and word of mouth of their experiences will continue to deter others from trying. I personally witnessed this happen to friends I had made my freshman year at school. The A…

Yep. Packing unprepared students in based on non-merit items (including legacy) and disadvantaging prepared students is absolutely ridiculous. It's bad enough that the standards are low for student athletes because it's all about talent-recruitment business and NCAA $$$, where educational attainment is tertiary.

Some schools are actually quite good at ensuring student athletes need to actually be students in addition to athletes. The necessary discipline to simultaneously train in rigorous athletics and scholarship can make for a compelling case.

Alas, my alma mater did not, and it was pretty obvious to everyone that they were athletes first, and kept up appearances about schooling. I am reasonably confident that several degree programs that the school offered would not have existed if the football and basketball programs didn't exist.

Would they have been able to let in more students who would have bean more focused on schooling? Honestly, I don't know, but I strongly suspect there are lower hanging fruit to pick first.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#425

Post by lightcatcher »

mcguire wrote: post #356
Manuel_D wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Wealthier parents are more mobile, and can move residences such that their children are in the top 10%.

If you ever find a case of a wealthy family moving to a rural area to improve their children's chances of getting into a state school, please let us know.

I went to high school in a science magnet program in Texas. Students from 3 high schools were eligible for the magnet program, and the magnet program was housed in one of the 3 high schools. Our math+science classes were in the magnet program, but our English/history/PE/art/all other classes were in the host school. The program made up about 10% of the host high scool, and students in the program were counted as part of the host school for purposes of university admission.

This understandably made people unhappy at the host school - ~7% of the class is academic high achievers from out of the school zone who take most of the admission spots reserved for the top N%.

I don't know of any cases of parents moving to avoid the extra competition, but I probably wouldn't have heard of that if it happened. I do know of some people set on going to UT who did not apply to the magnet program so they could have less competition.

The point here is you don't need to move to a rural area to decrease school competition. There are plenty of cases where you can move a mile to get into the zone of a less competitive school.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#426

Post by TchoBeer »

danaris wrote: post #50
dahfizz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how taking more advanced classes and scoring well is "gaming" your GPA. You are legitimately taking harder / more in depth classes and performing well. The fact that your GPA is higher as a result seems legitimate. You can argue about availability of AP classes / funding / etc, but that doesn't detract from the hard work of the AP students. Plenty of rich white kids take hard AP classes and get D's.

In some schools, so I understand, AP and Honors courses come with a "bonus" to GPA—so if you get 100% in the course, it may go down on your transcript as a 110%, that sort of thing.

My school had a pretty good system, where AP grades got a boost proportional to how far from 100 they were, something like 40%, so if you got an 80 raw it would be boosted by 20x.4 = 8 to 88 final score. This effectively means that weaker students aren't penalized for chosing harder classes whilst very strong students don't get rediculously inflated grades.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#427

Post by zozbot234 »

gjhh244 wrote: post #400
dcow wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The means at which we arrive upon AA is even suspect: A: We want equality, why are white people successful? B: Clearly because they went to a good college. C: Okay easy, let’s put the underprivileged into good colleges, that should fix ‘er right up. It doesn't seem like anybody is interested in solving the hard problem of why underprivileged communities aren’t producing good high school graduates. Maybe it has someth…

Exactly. From an European perspective America's obsession with race seems absolutely idiotic. Progressive taxation and major help for poor communities and families regardless of skin colour is obviously the only sensible solution.

Racial groups are used as vote banks by the two major parties - that's all there is to it. It has nothing to with wanting to help the poor or improve social cohesion, rather the opposite. A divided society is great for the most incompetent politicians since it provides them an easy way to whip up their constituents against other groups and fish for more votes.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#428

Post by tdhz77 »

rayiner wrote: post #387
tdhz77 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The color blind thinking modal has a long history of helping the majority stay the majority. What you propose is to continuing allow the status quo, which has already by statistical aggregation of college entrance proved to allow under performing “whites” in. Have you not seen the news where Aunt Becky got her kid in? Without tough affirmative action rules, Aunt becky’s kids get in and your kids don’t. This thinking…

Black, Latino, and Asian people all oppose racial preferences in admission: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... . For example Latinos say that race and ethnicity shouldn’t be even a “minor factor” in college admissions by a margin of 2:1. Like many things, this is in large part about liberal white people wanting to engage in social engineering on behalf of minorities who mostly don’t suppo…

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#429

Post by France_is_bacon »

Statistics:

The UC system has decreased the white student admissions down to 20%. It varies by school. Asian Americans make up 34% and Latinos are 37% of the UC campuses. It does change by campus, for example, white students are 15% at UC Irvine, and 11% at UC Merced.

Additionally, admittance ratio of universities across the nation is 60% women and 40% men, so that means of that 20% of white students admitted to the UC program, only 8% are white males.

Drop the SATs in order to concentrate on "lived experience", and then squeeze out the remaining white males? Or get it down to 1 or 2%?

A friend of mine, took the most difficult advanced courses at the most challenging high school in all of California, did all kinds of extracurriculars, sports, music, volunteering and never got less than an A in a single class. The very hardest classes. Fluent in several languages. Could not get into a single UC school. Would he have been admitted if he was a POC? I don't know, you tell me.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#430

Post by dolni »

tdhz77 wrote: post #428
rayiner wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black, Latino, and Asian people all oppose racial preferences in admission: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... . For example Latinos say that race and ethnicity shouldn’t be even a “minor factor” in college admissions by a margin of 2:1. Like many things, this is in large part about liberal white people wanting to engage in social engineering on behalf of minorities who mostly don’t suppo…

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> 30 years of conservatives not understanding what affirmative action is really the reason for this.

And yet you haven't made any persuasive argument about what it "really" is or why it's good.

> But, then again conservatives aren’t thinking people.

Imagine the hubris someone must possess to casually dismiss millions of other people as "not thinking".

Have you looked in the mirror today?

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