Why is the university of California dropping the SAT? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#181

Post by nyc640 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

nr2x wrote: post #20

Having spent a lot of time doing MS admissions at a top-tier CS program, I never really cared that much about specific scores unless they were absolutely terrible. Tests don’t tell you much about an applicant, essays are more helpful to know if somebody can be successful. We did away with tests and I didn’t miss them.

I can see how essays for graduate admissions can be more useful since you have to make a personal statement about your academic/research interests, how the program would help you accomplish your goals, etc. But for undergraduate admissions, the essays are the easiest part of your application to game since they ask about very generic life experiences (e.g. tell us about a hardship you overcame) that are unverifiable.

This is especially true for people with money: either through major editing from professionals ($$$), or just outright paying someone to write them for you ($$$). As someone who went to a rich high school in a large city (as a diversity student), I can tell you the number of students I knew who paid to have their essays written or heavily edited outnumbered those who didn't.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#182

Post by david38 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

This is a terrible policy. Anyone who has kids in high school and sees the lengths people go to game their grades will tell you this.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#183

Post by rahimnathwani » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

zzt123 wrote: post #104

rahimnathwani wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SFUSD's operating budget (excluding capital expenditure and maybe some other stuff) is $1.1bn. It normally serves 57k students. That's $17k per student per year. Funding is not the problem.

Possibly disagree. The cost of living index in San Francisco is somewhat above 250. Let’s round down to 200, so 2x as expensive as the national average. That brings $17k down to $8.5k. The average spend per student in K-12 schools nationally is more than $12k. San Francisco may be significantly underfunded in a nontrivial number of its schools.

Schools' costs don't vary the way that individuals' costs do, so the COL index isn't a good measure.

But, putting that aside, isn't ~$2k per class per day enough, even in San Francisco? If we were to increase funding for SFUSD, would outcomes improve?

- [20 students/class] * [$17k/year/student] / [180 days/year]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#184

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:24 PM UTC

At this point I'm really wondering what the ostensible purpose of Universities is, as opposed to their true purpose of wealth signaling.

We live in an age where university level lectures and materials are available for free. Why are we paying a ton of money to obtain a limited slot that allows us to show up at a building for the same lectures and materials?

Is it personal attention? Almost certainly not, but even if it was that can be had on the open market for far less cost.

Access to specialized equipment? Well maybe, but surely there's a more efficient solution there.

Is it certification? Because in my experience, as well as that of many others, the degrees don't say much of anything about competence so what good are they? Besides, it's again a really expensive way to certify people and surely there must be a better method.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#185

Post by nyc640 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

jlangemeier wrote: post #159

usaar333 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, by using AAPI students as a proxy argument for their weird screed at the end while leaving off factors like what percentage of that UG population is in-state v. out-of-state v. international does a disservice to that over/under-represented claim; while also leaving them off of the earlier analysis pieces moves the slant of the article in a weird way. UC reports international students separately. They also have…

> UC reports international students separately. [sic] The report cited in the article isn't as clear on their distinction and in some cases the numbers indicate that the comparisons are among feeder, in-state high schools; and others are general enough that the lack of detail is concerning as the study leaves out the total population and only provides percentages. > Not in higher ed. While the common/colloquial under…

> The report cited in the article isn't as clear on their distinction and in some cases the numbers indicate that the comparisons are among feeder, in-state high schools; and others are general enough that the lack of detail is concerning as the study leaves out the total population and only provides percentages.

You can look at the data[1] yourself. It's clear that of in-state students enrolling in UCs (not international), Asian Americans make up 36% of enrollees and white Americans make up 20% of enrollees (indeed "underrepresented"). It seems like you are leading on with your comments that it is maybe OK to cut down on Asian representation because most of those students are probably international anyway (which I also don't agree with), but the data clearly shows that such a cut to Asian representation would harm Asian Americans as well.

[1] https://accountability.universityofcalifornia.edu/2021/chapt...

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#186

Post by readflaggedcomm » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #126

justaman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left doesn't like a black man with right-wing ideas so he doesn't appear in mainstream avenues which are typically moderated by the left.

Sowell doesn't advocate for "right-wing" ideas. He's a moderate classical liberal, which is generally described as a centrist position.

He's extreme far right wing, especially compared to other parties in the USA, which tend to be right wing and moderate-right compared to those in Europe, where the terms originated.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#187

Post by nyc640 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

zzt123 wrote: post #111

jlangemeier wrote: post #93

Higher Ed Number cruncher here (who also read the report, which apparently was a big deal to the author since they cited the page count - and many of their arguments hinge on you taking their word for it and not reading at least the exec summary yourself - which is only 8 pages): So, fun thing about the actual study that the author references... the committee actually __DIDN'T__ tell UC regents to not get rid of the…

Ah. So when the article says that by percentage, white students are underrepresented, that’s because the denominator for the student body population includes all students (thus also international and out of state students), rather than just in-state California students? Tricky article!

This is not true, you can see the data[1] yourself for in-state students. It is true that of in-state students at UCs, white students are "underrepresented" compared to their share of the population, but their share of admissions is actually very close to their share of applications so there could be other reasons for this. For example, white students in CA may be:

* more likely to apply to private schools

* more able to afford private schools

* more likely to get accepted to private schools that don't have the same race-blind admissions restrictions that UCs do

* more likely to go out-of-state for college

[1] https://accountability.universityofcalifornia.edu/2021/chapt...

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#188

Post by weeblewobble » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

Irony is when the nuances of reality conflict with facile binary stereotypes

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#189

Post by cafard » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:54 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #99

ethbr0 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reducing its rank Do universities exist for students? Or do students exist for universities? I'm sure university administration believe the latter, but given that they're supported by the state (in UT's case, ~25% of their budget?) there's a pretty strong argument that they owe the people of the state education.

University Presidents and Trustees have this bizarre fixation on rankings. I have no clue why, especially considering the fact that that composition of the top 100 is fairly stable. Rarely does a university experience a big swing, up or down. Most universities are never going to dethrone the top 20, no matter how hard they try. And it's not like they are in desperate need for enrollment either.

There was a stretch in my life where I knew a lot of people who knew where George Washington University ranked versus Carleton College versus who knows what. The upper middle classes take this stuff seriously.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#190

Post by vkou » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #67

rootusrootus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's an upside if you're looking to be equitable.

Not necessarily. Wealthier parents are more mobile, and can move residences such that their children are in the top 10%.

They can, but they don't, just like how Jeff Bezos can choose to live under a bridge, but doesn't.

Nobody with money goes out of their way to send their children to a school in a 'common' part of town, because they don't want their children to mix up with 'the wrong kind' of people.