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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#81

Post by 41209 »

For one , you don't need to go straight to college , or attend college at all. Even before I got my BA I was making more than the Ivy League Alum in my family.

That's the first myth.

California has what's probably the best community college system in America. It was very easy for me, as a poor kid to meet ( and at times date) people from all over the world. Maybe you dropped out of high school due to just not liking it. You can still attend a community college, transfer to a UC and have a great career.

I did very poorly in highschool since I was constantly ether getting kicked out or evicted. Still I had morons in my family pressuring me to shrug it off.

If anything I'm angrier now than I was back then

I was exceptionally lucky to be able to find an affordable place to live at 19. My family is pretty horrible, all I really needed was a stable place. But that's impossible now, the same apartment that used to be $600 is now $1,300 or 1400.

For the record I've had several Asian friends who come from similar backgrounds, where there's extreme domestic violence at home and they just need a stable place to live. This is very much not a race issue, it's a 'people who don't have stable households aren't going to be able to get into top schools' issue.

If you want to fix test scores or whatever, you need to look at actually fixing the economic situation many of these kids are in.

Make it possible to afford your own place with a full time minimum wage job. At least then when a kid from a messed up family turns 18 they can move out.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#82

Post by throwaway284534 »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #65
throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

Texas actually has a system like this - it's called recapture - or more colloquially, the "Robin Hood law". You can read more here on how it has actually played out in its implementation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood_plan

That’s a very interesting read, thank you.

It’s a shame that the law only applied in full effect for 10 years. That’s barely enough time to fix a generation of students.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#83

Post by thebean11 »

Aperocky wrote: post #28
pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

All system can be gamed. I guess UT isn't that prestigious to create strong enough incentives. Imagine if Harvard said you'd get admission if you're top 1% of the class. Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that. California just made it very hard to game.

> Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that.

Native Texan here, not the first time I've heard this strategy.

For in state students, you really can't beat UT's cost to value ratio..people do try hard to get in.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#84

Post by zzt123 »

seriousquestion wrote: post #30
walkedaway wrote: post #11

Thomas Sowell has broken this down very well over the last 50 years. https://www.hoover.org/research/affirmative-action-around-wo... https://www.commentary.org/articles/thomas-sowell-2/affirmat... And of course the Bible on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sow...

Thomas Sowell is easily in the top 5 intellectuals alive, and yet most people are barely aware of him and his work. Why? I genuinely don't understand why he is so ignored.

Whether he is ignored or not depends on the thought circle of discourse and how that circle sets, or does not set, expectations based on skin color.

He’s ignored for the same reason Clarence Thomas is ignored - the juxtaposition between the color of his skin and his words.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#85

Post by tornato7 »

Aperocky wrote: post #19
lokar wrote: post #6

There is no real evidence for the idea that a difference in scores predicts a difference in performance, once you are above some threshold. They should keep the test, but use a threshold (per major and school) with a lottery for everyone above the threshold. And admit a small number below at random to keep evaluating what the threshold should be.

I don't understand why lottery are used so much in official context. Instead of the best, you select randomly and hoping RNGesus is on your side. I agree about the threshold, but how about using other criterias instead of RNG.

You mean like, read the student's application and use critical thinking to evaluate whether they're a good fit for the school based on their essays and individual accomplishments? Say it ain't so!

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#86

Post by settrans »

seriousquestion wrote: post #30
walkedaway wrote: post #11

Thomas Sowell has broken this down very well over the last 50 years. https://www.hoover.org/research/affirmative-action-around-wo... https://www.commentary.org/articles/thomas-sowell-2/affirmat... And of course the Bible on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sow...

Thomas Sowell is easily in the top 5 intellectuals alive, and yet most people are barely aware of him and his work. Why? I genuinely don't understand why he is so ignored.

Would someone who is downvote-burying these comments care to explain their distaste? Irrespective of whether you agree with Sowell's viewpoints, they are articulate and seem germane to the conversation.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#87

Post by rahimnathwani »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

SFUSD's operating budget (excluding capital expenditure and maybe some other stuff) is $1.1bn. It normally serves 57k students. That's $17k per student per year.

Funding is not the problem.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#88

Post by tannhauser23 »

Aperocky wrote: post #28
pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

All system can be gamed. I guess UT isn't that prestigious to create strong enough incentives. Imagine if Harvard said you'd get admission if you're top 1% of the class. Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that. California just made it very hard to game.

What's wrong with that? That'll encourage education-focused parents to move to more diverse neighborhoods. Right now parents are trying to cram into the 3-4 best school districts in any given area.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#89

Post by charlesju »

dahfizz wrote: post #23
charlesju wrote: post #12

Isn't GPA even easier to game than SATs? -- Private schools can curve more leniently so its pay to play -- Rich schools tend to have more AP/Honor courses which inflate weighted GPAs I went to one of the best public schools in America and it was not uncommon for someone to take 100% AP/Honors and get a 4.5+ GPA.

I don't see how taking more advanced classes and scoring well is "gaming" your GPA. You are legitimately taking harder / more in depth classes and performing well. The fact that your GPA is higher as a result seems legitimate. You can argue about availability of AP classes / funding / etc, but that doesn't detract from the hard work of the AP students. Plenty of rich white kids take hard AP classes and get D's.

Given 2 equally smart people. The one that has the opportunity to take more AP/Honors will have more opportunity to get a higher GPA.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#90

Post by stale2002 »

lostcolony wrote: post #59
dahfizz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how taking more advanced classes and scoring well is "gaming" your GPA. You are legitimately taking harder / more in depth classes and performing well. The fact that your GPA is higher as a result seems legitimate. You can argue about availability of AP classes / funding / etc, but that doesn't detract from the hard work of the AP students. Plenty of rich white kids take hard AP classes and get D's.

It's not gaming, per se, but it definitely is a privilege based thing. Getting into an advanced class generally means you already know the material that would be in the normal class (taking trig the year everyone else is taking geometry, for instance). How did you get to where you already knew that material? Well, you were either in the advanced class the year before, or, you already learned the material outside of c…

> . How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home.

You are basically saying if someone is more educated, that they will do better in education.

Yes, that's the point. The more time and effort someone spends in their education, the better they will do in education.

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