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SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

wwwnc.cdc.gov

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Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#261

Post by kaczordon »

solarkraft wrote: post #124
kaczordon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s more interesting is that 0/6 of the miners who had natural immunity were re-infected. That points to natural immunity preventing spread. The fact that vaccinated individuals don’t stop transmission means that there is no “public good” from getting vaccinated, it’s solely for personal benefit. Vaccine mandates or checking for vaccination status are pointless because of this.

> there is no “public good” from getting vaccinated, it’s solely for personal benefit. Even if your other claims were correct, the conclusion still wouldn’t be. Severe cases put massive strain on the health care system.

The strain on the healthcare system is primarily from older >70 patients. In the US 90% of the older population is vaccinated.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#262

Post by Izkata »

endisneigh wrote: post #19
standapart wrote: post #18

The main takeaway here, mentioned above, is that this might throw shade on the "public good" idea of vaccination-- that you should still vaccinate those at minimal risk from Covid. If you're at high risk, you should definitely still get vaccinated. Maybe just stop telling twenty-somethings they should get vaccinated too.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Even if vaccinated people could get COVID (which they can) and could get sick (which they currently do, to some extent) - the question is ultimately whether or not vaccinated people die at the same rate. As long as Rate of Death for Vaccinated < Rate of Death for Unvaccinated + Rate of Death for taking Vaccine; you should be vaccinated, regardless of age.

> regardless of age

Age is a very important factor; high risk is heavily weighted towards the elderly for infection, and so far side-effects seem to hit all age groups for vaccination, possibly even weighted slightly towards the young due to an overreaction from a stronger immune system.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#263

Post by samus »

native_samples wrote: post #189
samus wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unvaccinated population is not uniformly distributed though. The vaccines is not rated for the age younger than 12 yet, and it will still take a while to roll it out in the younger age groups. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if most vaccine refusers are part of groups who collectively refuse to vaccinate. We know from measles outbreaks that this is often the case. Finally, most vaccines achieve their maximum effect…

It's not rated for children because they appear to be immune to COVID and thus basically no safety results can possibly make the risk/reward tradeoff make sense in that age group. "one would have to determine the percentage of viable virus particles. Hard to tell whether that's even feasible at scale ... It's not too bad though. At worst this causes a higher than expected false-positive rate." I'm not sure you're awa…

> There have been studies that correlated PCR test results with ability to do viral culturing and concluded about 60% of all positive test results did not imply infectiousness.

My point was that the viral culturing might not be feasible for large-scale testing. In that case, we might have to stick to PCR.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#264

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

codr7 wrote: post #145
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had COVID before the lockdowns. It wasn't apparent to me until I started hearing about the symptoms. The fatigue was awful, but on top of that, the night my fever broke I was laying down on my bed during February with a window open and no sheets covering me. All while hyperventilating. I kinda thought this was a weird flu but fortunately I didn't have to worry up front about potential death while having it. Worst c…

Yeah, me too. I traveled by bus all the way from Southern Italy to Sweden just before the virus hit the news, and fell sick with the same symptoms for about a week from the day I arrived. The fever was nasty, but the one thing I remember most is lying there alone in the middle of the night feeling like I wasn't getting enough oxygen and wondering what the hell was going on.

I honestly was a little scared because it was so odd. I though it was just gonna be another flu. But of everything, the fatigue was the absolute worst. My spine, neck, and legs just felt like mush for a full week. Existing was effort. Could barely keep food down.

When my fever broke, I went about my life like normal. Still I'd hate to imagine what it would've been like in a not so vaccinated era like the early 1900s. I probably would've died.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#265

Post by standapart »

becuzThrowaway wrote: post #204
standapart wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an RCT. The work itself makes this very clear, it's observational, based on what we'll call "pseudo-voluntary" testing. Just provide the RCT for your claims-- this is necessary since the vaccine is known to be effective on a symptomatic level.

Please provide the RCT that shows that vaccinated individuals have similar levels of infection to unvaccinated individuals. What the RCTs for Pfizer and Moderna showed was that the vaccines reduced the symptomatic infection rate by 95%. But you are misconstruing the language being used if you extend that to say "the vaccine is known to be effective on a symptomatic level". The statement about symptomatic infection ju…

I don't have an RCT which establishes this. But I'm not the one who asserted that the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines prevented transmission. You have the burden of proof in this situation. Hence my reference to the astounding amount of certainty in your comment.

I think it is completely clear from the statement that you made that: the vaccines are effective at treating symptoms of covid and that they will reduce the symptomatic infection rates.

However, symptomatic infection rate and infection rate are decidedly not the same and we've know from the beginning that asymptomatic spread occurs substantially with covid.

The only way you establish the effect on transmission is with a large-scale RCT using a well-designed testing protocol. This may be hard but this is the standard.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#266

Post by nikolay »

samus wrote: post #257
nikolay wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is too slow anyway. You need to vaccinate the entire world at once otherwise the reservoirs outside of the first world will keep the variant roulette spinning and more dangerous variants will nullify the first generation of vaccines and we'll back to where we started. Just today here on HN was a post about gamma variant escaping fully-vaccinated with Pfizer. And this is not even considering that we're abo…

This sumbission is actually about just that article ;-) But yeah, it's too slow. The only saving grace is that there are multiple vaccines. Unless they all work exactly the same way, new mutations are unlikely to be immune to all of them. We indeed don't know that much about the virus itself, what happens when one gets infected multiple times and when multiple vaccines are combined. We are going to find out either wa…

I am disappointed by health authorities across the globe. If I was responsible, I would have the following:

1. Provide vitamin D3, zinc, and some zinc ionophore to the masses and advertise the benefits. Also, advise people to take a baby aspirin daily (slows viral replication and prevents blood clots).

2. Just like with cigarettes, have highly visual ads presenting the data that about a third of men have ED problems after surviving COVID-19. I think this would work better than anything else!

3. Have a ongoing campaign in prime time showing how to properly wear a face masks, what's the difference between a cloth one, a surgical one, and N95 - people still can't wear masks properly and have no idea what's the difference between a cloth one, a surgical one, and an N95/KN95/KF94/FFP2/FFP3.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#267

Post by throwaway675309 »

thirsty-dove wrote: post #163
evgen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely untrue. The reservoir of selfish unvaccinated individuals is what is providing a place for Covid to hide and mutate. Vax critics were silenced and ridiculed because they are dangerous deceivers who need to be called out and held to account for the consequences of their lies.

It's not selfish to decline a medical procedure one thinks is unlikely to benefit oneself. Furthermore, it's malpractice for a doctor to advise a patient to undergo a medical procedure that is not more likely than not to benefit that specific patient . Your attitude is what's dangerous.

You obviously need to check the database again then, because there are remarkably few cases where the person had a adverse reaction to the mRNA-based vaccine. Furthermore in the majority of those cases (of which were already slim to begin with), they are usually something like anaphylactic shock a.k.a. an allergic reaction which they can deal with at the time that the vaccine is administered.

It infuriates me that "armchair experts" who likely lack even a bachelors degree in STEM much less epidemiology think that they know better than the majority of medical professionals.

They are more likely to follow their advice of the mechanic who tells them that their catalytic converter needs to be replaced than a medical professional who has nearly a decade of specialized training.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#268

Post by xpe »

kaczordon wrote: post #261
solarkraft wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no “public good” from getting vaccinated, it’s solely for personal benefit. Even if your other claims were correct, the conclusion still wouldn’t be. Severe cases put massive strain on the health care system.

The strain on the healthcare system is primarily from older >70 patients. In the US 90% of the older population is vaccinated.

Citation, please?

And how does this point (if true) factor into the broader discussion being made?

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#269

Post by cloverich »

timr wrote: post #255
gibba999 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A study in isolation should not be persuasive. There's a pipeline from idea to hypothesis the theory to fact, which includes many studies with many methodologies. On the other hand, a handful of studies, one correlational with large n, a few causal, a good theoretical basis, etc. do move us up that pipeline quite a bit. Mild and asymptomatic cases of COVID19 due seem to cause brain damage leading to brain fog. - Repo…

> brain damage leading to brain fog. Define "brain fog". Tell me what the diagnostic criteria are, and how one might make an objective measurement of its presence and magnitude. Bonus question: tell me how your stated criteria differs from the pre-established diagnostic criteria for depression. One can survey a random sample of the population, ask them if they have ever "felt the presence of God", and find a strong s…

> tell me how your stated criteria differs from the pre-established diagnostic criteria for depression.

If the person lacks dysphoria or anhedonia, would that satisfy the question? I understand your angle (I think), but for comparison, the last time I had a serious flu I found that even after I felt better, it was extremely difficult to focus at work. For about 3 days, gradually improving each. I suspect that is what people refer to as "brain fog", and I could distinguish it from depression by (among other things) a lack of dysphoria / anhedonia (and generally speaking, other depression signs).

I remember in medical school that when we were interviewing patients receiving chemo they would have us do a neuro exam, and very distinctly remember when one guy got angry at me when he couldn't answer some of my questions. He didn't seem to have depression and nobody told me I was doing it wrong when I said he had "chemo brain". So its certainly a real thing in the general sense, and can certainly be caused by a variety of medical conditions.

I guess a more constructive question would be -- assuming a long term cognitive impact, what (practical) research should these researchers be doing instead? Or what if when they asked about brain fog they _also_ asked about depressive symptoms?

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#270

Post by kaczordon »

xpe wrote: post #268
kaczordon wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strain on the healthcare system is primarily from older >70 patients. In the US 90% of the older population is vaccinated.

Citation, please? And how does this point (if true) factor into the broader discussion being made?

The point OP is making is it relieves pressure on the healthcare system, but the pressure was only there because of old people. Now that old people are vaccinated there’s no reason to mandate or require vaccines. Just look at UK or Israel and the case rates there for how effective vaccines are against transmission. This study just drives home the point.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations

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