Why is the university of California dropping the SAT? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#141

Post by b9a2cab5 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

pie420 wrote: post #5

warent wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California is crumbling, socially. Have you seen the homelessness epidemic from San Fransisco and everywhere south? I work in a lucrative upper engineering management role and still cannot afford to buy a house... That's not really an indicator of a healthy state.

Then ask for a raise. Two people making $140k should easily be able to save up $400k in 5-8 years for a mortgage down payment. And single people don't need an entire house.

Clearly you've never tried to purchase real estate in the Bay or done the math. $140k after taxes is more like 90k, and then rent eats up $25k of that alone. Subtract another $25k for living expenses (food, insurance, car, etc.) and you're left with 40k, which realistically you'd be dumping into a retirement fund. 2 bedroom house in a decent location with decent schools costs well over $1.5M, plus the insane property taxes due to Prop 13., and you need to pay cash or you won't win the bidding wars.

In states with functioning real estate markets, a decent house in a decent location costs $700k tops and you don't pay $3-4k/mo in rent for a shitty, tiny apartment next to a homeless encampment. My friend rents a highrise penthouse in Chicago for the same price as a 1930s 3bd apartment in SF.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#142

Post by vt100 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #125

stale2002 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. You are basically saying if someone is more educated, that they will do better in education. Yes, that's the point. The more time and effort someone spends in their education, the better they will do in education.

No. I am explicitly pointing out that even if you learn everything taught in class 100%, and get perfect grades in it, you may not be eligible for some advanced classes. It requires outside investment. And then the advanced classes give you a leg up in terms of college admissions if GPA is a guaranteed entry point. That means the grade inflation of AP classes just serves as an indirect proxy for money, rather than a…

The "outside investment" is just time and effort. There is free access to information via public libraries, the internet, youtube, mathworld, etc.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#143

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #48

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

Well, there are problems with that right out of the gate. * Consider a family where the highschool student has to work to help out with rent and food bills, so they miss school or don't have time to work on assignments. Compare this to a wealthier family where the student has all the free time in the world. * Or consider a district that skews wealthier and tutors push the haves up into the 10%, and push the have nots…

[deleted]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#144

Post by stale2002 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #125

stale2002 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. You are basically saying if someone is more educated, that they will do better in education. Yes, that's the point. The more time and effort someone spends in their education, the better they will do in education.

No. I am explicitly pointing out that even if you learn everything taught in class 100%, and get perfect grades in it, you may not be eligible for some advanced classes. It requires outside investment. And then the advanced classes give you a leg up in terms of college admissions if GPA is a guaranteed entry point. That means the grade inflation of AP classes just serves as an indirect proxy for money, rather than a…

> It requires outside investment.

So if you engage in more and better education, above and beyond the education that one is engaging in school, then that person will be better at education?

Yes, of course.

Just like if someone practices basketball, outside of their school team, and hires a basketball tutor, then they would become better at basketball.

Obviously, if someone spends more of their own time on something, anything, whether it is education, or basketball, or whatever, then they would become better at that thing.

The only question now, is why would that possibly surprise you, that people who go above and beyond whatever everyone else is doing, would become better than everyone else at that thing?

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#145

Post by genedan » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #28

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

All system can be gamed. I guess UT isn't that prestigious to create strong enough incentives. Imagine if Harvard said you'd get admission if you're top 1% of the class. Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that. California just made it very hard to game.

> Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that.

This actually happened when UT started applying the rule. Parents moved their kids to less competitive schools.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#146

Post by nishs » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #72

srswtf123 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most important task required to fix education. Its so obvious and it’s never on the table, which tells me everything I need to know about “reformers”. Until this is done, most everything else it shuffling deck chairs.

As noted in the sibling comment - this has already been implemented in Texas for almost 30 years now. While studying the outcomes and the way it was implemented is an exercise for the reader, it's hardly the silver bullet your comment makes it out to be.

I found this criticism of the Robin Hood plan: https://www.keranews.org/archive/2005-12-12/texas-schools-an....

Let's examine the substance of the points the article makes.

> Yet when the money is being transferred to other districts, it becomes a state issue and is therefore a state property tax, which is illegal in Texas.

Ah, geez.

> Furthermore, taking funds from one district to another makes accountability for funding convoluted [...] how will they ever know if their money is being used constructively?

Sure, there's also no way to definitively say that the money is _not_ being used constructively.

> The percentage of Texans graduating was stagnant from 1993 to 2003 - stuck at 77%. If the "Robin Hood" system is supposed to bring up the weaker districts (which tend to be the poorer ones), the statistics show no signs of improvement.

The graduation rate isn't the sole metric that should be considered to make this argument. And even if it is considered, you'd only want to consider the graduate rate change across time in the weaker/poorer districts, not across the whole state.

Is there an article with better criticism? The English Wikipedia entry doesn't really mention any, besides "oh no it's actually a state tax".

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#147

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

zumu wrote: post #46

MikeUt wrote: post #7

> Here are some more of the fiercely held arguments for dumping the tests: Test scores don’t reflect the character-forging aspects of life as a poor teenager; the tests force students from underfunded schools to compete against “affluent whites” who can afford expensive test prep; While the article does offer some rebuttal to that claim, I'd like to give a stronger one*: California is 31% white, University of Califor…

Does anyone else think the % of the student body metric is misleading? Shouldn't it be a % relative to college age population?

Universities are, in general, not responsible for high-school dropouts.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#148

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

charlesju wrote: post #89

dahfizz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how taking more advanced classes and scoring well is "gaming" your GPA. You are legitimately taking harder / more in depth classes and performing well. The fact that your GPA is higher as a result seems legitimate. You can argue about availability of AP classes / funding / etc, but that doesn't detract from the hard work of the AP students. Plenty of rich white kids take hard AP classes and get D's.

Given 2 equally smart people. The one that has the opportunity to take more AP/Honors will have more opportunity to get a higher GPA.

Gaming implies that your metrics are being ruined by moving towards an opposite effect, not that they fail to be perfect. Similarly, doing well in the IMO could be a predictor of wealth and circumstance, but it's also a signal for math talent.

If we're saying that AP tests and classes are too easy, then of course people can have a discussion about increasing difficulty.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#149

Post by nishs » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

nishs wrote: post #146

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As noted in the sibling comment - this has already been implemented in Texas for almost 30 years now. While studying the outcomes and the way it was implemented is an exercise for the reader, it's hardly the silver bullet your comment makes it out to be.

I found this criticism of the Robin Hood plan: https://www.keranews.org/archive/2005-12-12/texas-schools-an... . Let's examine the substance of the points the article makes. > Yet when the money is being transferred to other districts, it becomes a state issue and is therefore a state property tax, which is illegal in Texas. Ah, geez. > Furthermore, taking funds from one district to another makes accountability for f…

Found a better one with a decent (but tangential imo) criticism.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2018/04/06/wil...

> All those taxes aren’t going to poorer districts; the money goes to the state, which also uses it to offset other parts of the budget. “Where did the state spend the ‘savings?’” says a slide from Taxparency Texas. It lists $2.6 billion for cuts in the business franchise tax and $1.2 billion for increasing the homestead exemption.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#150

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

> If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities.

UC is the more elite of two separate state funded university systems in CA, but it has a similar guarantee (but not campus-of-choice), that evaluates earlier (counts only 10th and 11th grade) and has a 9% cutoff for the “in your class” guarantee, which is called “Eligibility in Local Context”.

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requi...

They also guarantee admission to the top 9% statewide, even if they aren't top 9% of class.

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requi...

California State University, the larger state-funded system, has a process called “redirection” which functions as a kind of admission guarantee for qualified California residents who are applying as first-time freshman or certain transfer statuses, but I can’t easily find clear documentation of the cutoff (which may just be the minimum CSU eligibility cutoffs), but in any case is broader than UCs.

I'm not convinced that Texas is more progressive here. (Even before considering the sibling comments that indicate that the actual current guarantee is less than the top 10%.)