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The Framework Laptop is now shipping

frame.work

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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#571
post #353
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have any plans we can share yet, but we did design the display to be easy to replace by putting it behind a magnet-attach bezel and using fasteners to affix it the lid.

I’m curious about these responses. They kind of read like “Yes, but we don’t want to commit to anything right now.”

No matter how much you qualify an answer: “yes, but it’s extremely early in design, we may not be able to find the right manufacturers so it may not happen at all, but the earliest possible date would be late 2022”, there is a segment of people that will have an expectation that you will deliver the product before 2023 and will be upset if you don’t.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#573
post #286

This device is seriously the answer to all my laptop problems. I really like the form factor of the XPS 13, but now I'm stuck with the complete inability to upgrade RAM. In what universe is that normal? Then I accidentally nuked the USB-C ports on the left side when it got wet, and now I'm left with a single port for everything, including charging. What!? Why? I tore the entire thing apart and there's just no way to…

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

We believe that socketing memory is a good tradeoff to enable greater longevity through memory upgrades, and also a more useful upgrade path by being able to keep your memory during certain mainboard upgrades.

In the DDR5 timeframe, there is less of a power delta as well between DDR5 and LPDDR5.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#574
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up until relatively recently, a lot of laptops and even phones would put the connectors on separate PCBs connected by a ribbon, so that damaging those wouldn't mean a $500 motherboard replacement. I definitely remember ordering a replacement headphone socket board for an old MacBook and just putting it in myself, and I've done similar with, eg, the connector port board on a PS4 controller. But I guess this is one of…

If I am not mistaken the ports on recent Apple machines are on a separate, easily replaceable board.

Doesn’t appear to be the case on the 16” MBP: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+16-Inch+2019+Tea...

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#575

I really like the replaceable USB-C ports. From my smartphone I know, these things wear-off when being used multiple times per day and being able to simply replace them is much more useful than it might look like at first sight.

I hear this a lot but only from people with USB-C. Sure, on occasion you'd also hear someone who broke their mobile micro-USB or even USB-A laptop ports, but usually that was from bending the connector accidentally if I remember correctly.

As someone with zero problems finding the correct orientation (it's both tactile and visual) who is in the market for a new phone, makes me wonder if I should look for one with micro-USB again. Replacing that port sounds like hell, and I use devices at least 4 years so if C is prone to wearing I'd definitely have to.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is if it's a standard that everyone decides to support...

You can fit FAR more signals on the bottom of a chip and in a multi-layer PCB than you can on any socket you might think of. There is a practical limit to how small the pitch of the pins on a socket can be if it's going to be field-replaceable; at high pin counts, the length of the socket itself becomes a driving factor. As an example, even moving away from edge-connectors (which are just a non-starter for 800+ pins)…

So design it like a CPU socket? Laptops usually don't have socketed CPUs because they also need to mount a heatsink, but RAM doesn't have that issue.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#577
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RAM energy efficiency is extremely important because it is a significant part of the baseline power consumption. Power-hungry components like CPU and GPU can be run in the lowest power state most of the time, so it really comes down to RAM and the display. If you have a 60Wh battery and want to get 15 hours battery life, you need to get your idle power consumption under 4 watts. So even 0.5 watt in baseline RAM consu…

I recall underclocking the RAM on my video card a few years ago when in desktop mode. Reduced the heat in the PC case by several degrees.

Performance difference between system RAM and VRAM is an order of magnitude. Specifically, DDR4-3200 peaks at 25.6 GB/second per channel, modern high-end GPUs peak at 500-900 GB/second depending on the GPU model.

VRAM consumes substantial power to deliver that performance. On many GPUs, VRAM chips are actively cooled. System RAM doesn’t even need passive heatsinks, uses too little electricity to care.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#578
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway. That's great, then you can buy this modular laptop or one of many laptops that still has user upgradeable ram. Turns out you don't have to make this compromise if you don't want to and people that do can also make their own choice!

Ah yes, the "free market" argument. Remind me of how that one went with the headphone jack. Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier - despite it objectively being a worse device for it with almost no positives except saving a little bit of cost for the manufacturer. I do not accept the arguments on it being necessary for water resistance or providing much savi…

The free market is allowing a company like this one to exist because they're banking on there being enough people that care about this sort of thing to buy into their device rather than buying from a well established brand. That assumption will be put to the test very soon and advocates for this sort of device have a great opportunity to do so. The bitter reality though is that there might be a market large enough to sustain a company like this, but it won't make any big waves in the industry as a whole. Because people generally don't care.

> Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier

You're making a conscious decision about what sort of compromises you're willing to make with regards to your devices, just as everyone else is that buys electronic devices. There are plenty of phones with headphone jacks that have premium hardware specs. Sure, Apple doesn't have it. Samsung doesn't. But plenty of other manufacturers do, and people aren't buying them. Sony's top of the line smart phones have a headphone jack. LG's Vx0 line had headphone jacks and a fancy DAC built into them. ASUS's RoG phones have a headphone jack too. There's plenty of choice if it's actually that important to you. Buy those devices and hope that you can convince enough other people that the feature is as important to them as it is to you.

You don't need to shit on other people's choices nor assume that they aren't informed about the choices they make to want for the things that you do.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#579
post #345
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

> In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM [.....] You simply can’t have this with socketed RAM. You make it sound like a prerequisite. I'm pretty sure the reason LPDDR is Low Power is not due to (currently) being unavailable in socketed modules - that would seem to be a side-effect of the original target market (smart phones). They are just some BGA packages, I see no reason they couldn't b…

ribit and others are correct. While this may have been possible in the past, at modern memory frequencies and timings, it's not really plausible to deviate from what the platforms are designed for: LPDDR being soldered and placed a specific layout area relative to the CPU, and for socketed DDR, the sockets being placed in one of a few placements relative to the CPU, with a little layout wiggle room.

Edit: I guess to clarify, the plausibility challenge is that whether or not it is theoretically possible, the platform owner (Intel, AMD, etc) or the memory vendors (Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron) are unlikely to support the lark.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please point us to some technical report or something where they document the energy saving of moving from dimm slots to soldered ram/ssd ?

I don't think you'll find any. The way I understand it, the savings come from the new LP variant of DDR chips and nobody ever bothered to put them on DIMMs. And even if the DIMM design (it's more than just a slot) doesn't make sense anymore, we could easily make a new "dumb" memory slot standard that would allow us to swap out the chips directly - like we have for CPUs.

> we could easily make a new "dumb" memory slot standard that would allow us to swap out the chips directly - like we have for CPUs.

You could, but it would take up a lot of space, given the higher pin count, and would most likely increase power consumption.

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