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The Framework Laptop is now shipping

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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#541

Post by vimacs2 »

dhosek wrote: post #470
vimacs2 wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a deliberate design choice, not some inevitable consequence of modernity. Why exactly does the board need to be cell phone sized when the actual form factor of even a netbook is substantially larger?

To fit more battery. Other than my Mac mini, every computing device (including watch and phone) I own is mostly battery inside.

Which you could also do by simply making the device a little thicker and have a battery run the entire width of the device. Point is past a certain point, thinness becomes more of a drawback than a benefit, especially given the trade-offs involved.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#542

Post by specialist »

wolverine876 wrote: post #530
specialist wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please forgive the hi-jack... FWIW, the book Design Rules: The Power of Modularity systematically explores the tradeoffs. https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-Modularity/dp/... Written by two economists, it's the only prescriptive definition of architecture that I've managed to find. Influenced me deeply.

So why are you holding back on us? :) What are the main trade-offs?

Heh. Just what you'd guess. Interfaces allow separation of concerns, parallel dev efforts, competition. Integration allows optimization, at greater risk.

Their core contribution is modeling the options with net present value (NPV) to remove the guess work.

--

Tangentially...

They also explain the dependency structure matrix (DSM), a tool for modeling and visualizing architectures.

One big takeaway for me was their explanation of "complexity catastrophe". The crossover point when the cost of change exceeds the benefit. A metaphor superior to most interpretations of "technical debt", IMHO.

So when you have a DSM, these kinds of problems pop out, can't be ignored.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#543

Post by [deleted] »

jarcane wrote: post #297
hughrr wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically 99% of the corporate and consumer laptops I have been party to are built to order with the right amount of RAM in and never upgraded. Those of us who actually upgrade are an insignificant minority at this point or pulling them out of the ex corp recycling lifecycle. Another point is stuff that is soldered in is a lot more reliable as a whole. Amazing how many old machines can be resurrected by reseating…

The Framework's ports are all on user-selectable, replaceable expansion modules. If one of the USB-C ports dies, you just unplug it and install a new one.

[deleted]

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#544

Post by baybal2 »

Brakenshire wrote: post #528
ribit wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing, who is everyone? Such technology would only be relevant to premium-level ultraportable notebooks. Desktops, gaming laptops as well as budget laptops would stick with the cheaper and more ubiquitous DDR. Smartphones and tables will continue to solder RAM on due to space constraints. Apple (who is the driving force in this market segment) won't be interested since they are going fully custom and I dou…

If LPDDR is faster won’t desktops and gaming laptops also want it? One possible other compromise could be soldered LPDDR RAM, but with a DIMM expansion slot for DDR as well. I wonder whether the DDR could be switched off and the baseline power draw eliminated if the RAM usage was below needing it.

> If LPDDR is faster won’t desktops and gaming laptops also want it?

The desktop version of LPDDR4 is there, it's just called DDR5.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#547

Post by vimacs2 »

least wrote: post #517
vimacs2 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would point out though that while he might have been wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to embrace soldered RAM to get laptops that are thin enough . At a certain point, you're just going to end up with an experience that is objectively worse since keyboards start having more and more give the thinner you make them (not to mention far worse feel). I'd…

> I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway. That's great, then you can buy this modular laptop or one of many laptops that still has user upgradeable ram. Turns out you don't have to make this compromise if you don't want to and people that do can also make their own choice!

Ah yes, the "free market" argument. Remind me of how that one went with the headphone jack. Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier - despite it objectively being a worse device for it with almost no positives except saving a little bit of cost for the manufacturer. I do not accept the arguments on it being necessary for water resistance or providing much saving of internal storage either - since we have devices that demonstrate how these claims are bunk.

My point is that maybe there needs to be an organised pushback against this instead of pretending like customers have perfect knowledge of the drawbacks and benefits associated with a particular design decision and are not at all affected by marketing.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#548

Post by drstewart »

cconcepts wrote: post #280

I hope you guys slay the market and are able to keep up with the demand that is coming at you. I hope this is the Tesla moment for the consumer electronics industry where the incumbents are forced, through the hubris yet popularity of an upstart, to start innovating again and doing what is good for humanity rather than peddling incrementally changed products each year that are designed to become obsolete within an ev…

The reality is that this will be a niche product that gets almost no mainstream adoption outside of a small tech bubble, like the Fairphone.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#549

Post by ineedasername »

vimacs2 wrote: post #464
wayoutthere wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern laptop motherboards can easily be about the size of a cell phone. Most of the case is battery and the main board is a shrinking percentage of the BOM cost. The entire motherboard is the replaceable component. It’s less “right to repair” than the additional components and design required to make them repairable are more expensive than just replacing the whole board.

Seems like a deliberate design choice, not some inevitable consequence of modernity. Why exactly does the board need to be cell phone sized when the actual form factor of even a netbook is substantially larger?

It is mostly only a deliberate design choice in the sense that consumers have leaned towards designs that are smaller, lighter, and with longer battery lives.

It doesn't matter that the rest of the form factor is larger: there's not a lot of empty space in these, so a larger main board will still mean a larger and heavier device.

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