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Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

bbc.com

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Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#31

Post by jen20 »

OJFord wrote: post #16
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Frankly I don't think anyone should be extradited to the USA. I just have zero confidence in the US legal system. Prosecutions seem politically motivated. Punishments are unreasonably harsh (I suspect to drive plea deals over actual trials). The quality of your defence depends entirely on how much you have to spend. And there seems to be a weird bias making prosecution and conviction of foreigners more likely for no…

> extradition agreement with the US seems filled with its own issues (extradition requires no evidence and doesn't seem to allow the usual defences) Is that bad or unusual? It's no different than being required to appear in court in your own country 'without evidence' really is it? IANAL but AIUI extradition just means one country will uphold the other's standard of compelling you to appear in its court. (resp. also…

> Is that bad or unusual?

Unusual, I don't know. Bad, yes, absolutely.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#32

Post by munk-a »

NationalPark wrote: post #29
mc32 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do incarcerate a lot, however, keep in mind some of it has to do with the dismantling of the equally problematic mental health institutions beginning in the late sixties. Lots of people who would better be served in psychiatric units are housed in regular prisons.

Those were dismantled for themselves being full of human rights violations though.

Yea - but dismantling them was the wrong answer. It was the easy guiltless answer where everyone could pat themselves on the back, but mental health treatment is a service that society needs and trying to solve it with prisons is just a terrible idea.

The right answer was admitting and addressing those terrible abuses and fixing the system.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#33

Post by OJFord »

jen20 wrote: post #31
OJFord wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> extradition agreement with the US seems filled with its own issues (extradition requires no evidence and doesn't seem to allow the usual defences) Is that bad or unusual? It's no different than being required to appear in court in your own country 'without evidence' really is it? IANAL but AIUI extradition just means one country will uphold the other's standard of compelling you to appear in its court. (resp. also…

> Is that bad or unusual? Unusual, I don't know. Bad, yes, absolutely.

Why? It's not obvious to me.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#34

Post by NiceWayToDoIT »

> Artificially inflated

Can someone please explain why is this company any different than any US company? In my eyes they are all artificially inflated. I love Tesla for instance but please P/E ratio of 654.03 isn't that the same thing? (it is genuine question)

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#35

Post by laumars »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9
bartread wrote: post #8

> But Dr Lynch has argued that HP used the allegations to cover up its own mismanagement of Autonomy after the 2011 deal. I have no comment to make on Mike Lynch's guilt or innocence in this matter, because I simply don't know enough about him or about Autonomy (despite working in an office just across the road for 3 years leading up to the sale)[0], but tough to argue that HP wasn't mismanaged during this period, an…

> tough to argue that HP wasn't mismanaged during this period, and therefore tough to assert that this mismanagement wouldn't have extended to Autonomy How is this relevant? If you get sold a computer, are delivered a turtle, and then kill it because you forgot to feed it, it can simultaneously be true that you were (a) incompetent and (b) defrauded.

It’s relevant because that’s his defence. As cited in the article we are discussing.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#36

Post by zepto »

dathinab wrote: post #6

As far as I can tell US prisons (in generally, not necessary all but I think most) are basically a heap of human right violations. In that context I think extraditing anyone to the US should be treated as a human right violation and as such should not be done. And even if we ignore their prisons from a German Law POV a lot of their law is fundamentally in conflict with the values represented by the constitution and m…

Consider Assange in Belmarsh. For the Uk to rule that Us prisons are human rights violations it would have to apply the same ruling to itself.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#37

Post by mc32 »

throwaway4good wrote: post #28
mc32 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do incarcerate a lot, however, keep in mind some of it has to do with the dismantling of the equally problematic mental health institutions beginning in the late sixties. Lots of people who would better be served in psychiatric units are housed in regular prisons.

You also over-incarcerate black men by a factor of XXX - hardly you can use the excuse of lack of psychiatric units there.

How do you explain Cuba, Grenada, or Maldives?

There are historical factors which contribute to higher incarceration rates (poor, lack of opportunity, unemployment benefits structures (unreported income does not affect eligibility), etc which contribute to higher probability of running afoul of criminal law.

Moreover, you can see a marked increase from the '80s on. That strongly implies economic factors (in conjunction with Clinton's tough on crime agenda).

What precipitates this is the hollowing out of American jobs overseas. No longer could a high school graduate live on the income afforded by a HS graduate. As people's in the lower socio-economic rungs saw decreasing purchasing power, few alternatives were available to them. Steel Mills closed down, Shoe factories, Clothing, the FT cleaning crew was replaced by low wage imported labor, etc.

Some of the same reasons are seen in countries with populations of poor people. Belarus, Thailand, Bahamas, etc.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#38

Post by _2d30 »

dathinab wrote: post #6

As far as I can tell US prisons (in generally, not necessary all but I think most) are basically a heap of human right violations. In that context I think extraditing anyone to the US should be treated as a human right violation and as such should not be done. And even if we ignore their prisons from a German Law POV a lot of their law is fundamentally in conflict with the values represented by the constitution and m…

> As far as I can tell US prisons (in generally, not necessary all but I think most) are basically a heap of human right violations.

Excited to learn about the German prisons that respect human rights. The "prisoners" just come and go as they feel?

The whole point of prisons is to take away a human's rights. That's like fundamental to the concept of incarceration.

Or are you concerned with US prisons violating too many human rights in comparison to German prisons?

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#39

Post by minikites »

eloff wrote: post #30
minikites wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People harp on China or North Korea being police states but the United States incarcerates more people per capita than any other nation by a significant margin. The US justice system is rife with discrimination and the prison conditions are dire (as you point out). People should absolutely not be extradited to the USA until this changes.

You need to drop North Korea from that to make any sense at all. Not only do they incarcerate far more people per capita than the US, but the conditions make US prison seem like paradise. No exaggeration. Prison in North Korea is much closer in spirit and implementation to Nazi concentration camps during the second World War, or the Soviet gulags. Many people die within months of being sent there.

>Many people die within months of being sent there.

I take your overall point, but here in the US police just execute people on the streets and then face no consequences for doing so. I continue to think the comparison fits.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#40

Post by LatteLazy »

OJFord wrote: post #16
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Frankly I don't think anyone should be extradited to the USA. I just have zero confidence in the US legal system. Prosecutions seem politically motivated. Punishments are unreasonably harsh (I suspect to drive plea deals over actual trials). The quality of your defence depends entirely on how much you have to spend. And there seems to be a weird bias making prosecution and conviction of foreigners more likely for no…

> extradition agreement with the US seems filled with its own issues (extradition requires no evidence and doesn't seem to allow the usual defences) Is that bad or unusual? It's no different than being required to appear in court in your own country 'without evidence' really is it? IANAL but AIUI extradition just means one country will uphold the other's standard of compelling you to appear in its court. (resp. also…

A few thoughts from the top of my head:

* In the uk you'll get police bail for almost all accusations (police bail means meaning released from jail, agreeing not to contact other people involved and not to leave the country). In the US I don't think you get bail, except for cash bail? And even then, you cannot go home or go to work, you're stuck in the US awaiting trial. Bye bye job. Bye bye marriage maybe given how long US trials, appeals, counter appeals etc are.

* The US and UK have pretty different justice systems. If you were dragged to the UK for trial, you can forget attorney client privilege. Or any real challenges to the evidence against you. Illegally collected evidence is still admissible here and if you confess to your solicitor, he has to plead guilty for you and inform the other side.

* Also, there are a lot of things that aren't crimes in one country but are in the other. Should you think about English law before you take actions in America? What if you're drunk in a field with your cow? That's illegal in the uk. Fancy coming over to be tried for it?

* the above leads to anothet issue: you can use extradition to bypass the constitution. You can be prosecuted for critiquing the president right, 1st amendment? Only you can, German makes it illegal to criticise foreign leaders, so Biden or Trump can ask them to extradite you, and have you tried there. Even though you've (presumably) never been to Germany. Sound good?

Extradition usually requires some evidence (the same as being charged locally). It seems weird the police won't have enough to hold me overnight, but I can be bundled onto a flight just because.

Extradition usually requires your crime to be committed in the place you're going for trial. That's partly to avoid stupid laws (ever critisized the king of Thailand? That's a capital crime over there) and party to make it clear who prosecutes (england prosecutes crimes in England where they're our problem, ditto the USA).

Edit: -3? Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Bars_to_extraditio...

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