Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#151

Post by yawaworht1978 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

Maybe not cause directly , but seems to trigger something that was laying dormant. From the smokers I know or knew , it becomes a very addictive habit, where they drift off the norm while stoned or worse, while not stoned.

They're not as annoying as coke heads or tweakers, these are more extrovert and kinda obvious, while smokers are often more silent, God knows what's going on in them.

I wouldn't associate it to weed until it's 100percent proven, to understand the human mind will take a lot more time.

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#152

Post by NoblePublius » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

The only thing I can reasonably conclude from this study is that more schizophrenics are using marijuana because marijuana is more available than it used to be. I see no evidence of an increase in the absolute number of schizophrenics relative to the availability of cannabis. Who funded this, the DEA?

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#153

Post by brendanclune » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

eloisius wrote: post #44

hereforphone wrote: post #2

I can only speak from personal experience, which is of course limited. I smoked occasionally in my 20s, but not since (I'm middle-aged now). I've been friends and acquaintances with many people that smoke a lot. I see a trend among these people - not necessarily schizophrenia (I'm not a psychologist and probably wouldn't even notice a mild case) - but instead a consistent arrogance and self-importance. It's peculiar…

Same observation. I also smoked weed in my teens and early twenties and I remember it making some of the most banal horse shit ideas seem profound, or like I really understand how the universe clicked together. I bet hanging out with a bunch of stoners steeping in my own bullshit for another decade would make me a(n even more) pompous ass too.

Realistically it was my teens and early twenties that made banal horse shit ideas profound. There's something to be said for age.

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#154

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

olyjohn wrote: post #81

xxpor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone who's serious doesn't think the act of burning organic matter and inhaling it is bad. That being said, pot simply has a lot less stuff in it than tobacco smoke. Also, almost no one is smoking a pack of day of joints. Fortunately there are other alternatives too, like sugar free candies.

You hit the nail on the head. Most people I know will smoke like half a joint in an evening and be done. Maybe take a couple bong rips. You don't sit there and smoke all night long. You'd be passed out long before you'd get through a 20 pack of joints. Meanwhile, it's super easy to pick up a pack of cigarettes and suck down 5-10 of them in an evening. Sometimes it feels like people who don't smoke really have to just…

The duration and size of the hit does in fact matter compared to cigarettes.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#155

Post by handrous » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

runawaybottle wrote: post #95

hart_russell wrote: post #7

I think it's too common a sentiment that psychoactive substances like cannabis and psilocybin are harmless and in fact are good for mental health. I've had adverse mental reactions to both and I would caution people with family history of anxiety.

I suffer from chronic anxiety and the tales of weed just relaxing you sounded like a magic pill. It was one of the most intense anxiety inducing experiences I’ve ever had. Very unfortunate, but some people seem to manage it well. If you can barely manage anxiety on your own, weed is is a force multiplier for your fears. However, I’d be willing to try again in the future as it becomes more available in vape form and t…

> I suffer from chronic anxiety and the tales of weed just relaxing you sounded like a magic pill. It was one of the most intense anxiety inducing experiences I’ve ever had. Very unfortunate, but some people seem to manage it well.

Low doses (5mg of edible or under, for me) have been amazing for my sleep and (very relatedly) anxiety.

The effect of 10mg of same (yes, I know, that's lightweight amounts still) on an empty stomach were... very different. I can definitely see how that would induce anxiety. The disconnectedness and extreme short-term-memory forgetfulness was certainly alarming. I felt about as impaired as when I've been pretty damn drunk, but with a much stronger memory-related effect.

Luckily, just going to sleep much earlier than I'd intended solved the problem. Unlike with alcohol, I woke up the next day feeling great, and had, surprisingly, excellent recall of the sequence of events the night before, despite in-the-moment having great difficulty remembering why I was where I was, even.

YMMV, obviously, but now I know to treat an evening with higher doses (should I try that again) as rather less medicinal than a low-dose evening.

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#156

Post by asdff » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

hereforphone wrote: post #2

I can only speak from personal experience, which is of course limited. I smoked occasionally in my 20s, but not since (I'm middle-aged now). I've been friends and acquaintances with many people that smoke a lot. I see a trend among these people - not necessarily schizophrenia (I'm not a psychologist and probably wouldn't even notice a mild case) - but instead a consistent arrogance and self-importance. It's peculiar…

I think part of that isn't the symptoms of the drug but the culture surrounding it. In most places its illegal or at the very least frowned upon, so being one who does this regularly makes you perceived by some parts of society as some sort of black sheep. People wear the black sheep badge proudly and can be arrogant and in your face about it. Just look at how techies act online. Smoking pot, like knowing stuff about technology, makes you 'in the know' relative to the rest of society, and can make you feel superior that you are taking part in something that most people will never or might outright refuse to experience.

Even in parts of the US where its been legal to smoke pot for some time like California, the social stigma of meeting up for drinks at a bar regularly and meeting up to smoke pot regularly are not equivalent. Your employer might even drug test you still.

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#157

Post by bjourne » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #136

qayxc wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, there's just too many variables here. The drug itself also changed over the years with current breeds having way more active ingredients than the ones used decades ago.

This part is easy to overstate. It's mostly true for the United States, although even back in the day there were strains (Maui was famous for this) which had nice crystals and were grown without males around to spoil the product. In Europe, hashish was the normal form of cannabis, and it's hard to make hash more potent than it already is. It varies in quality and strength like any natural product, but over a range th…

According to studies, cannabis potency has indeed increasedi n Europe in the last few decades. See An overview of cannabis potency in Europe (https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/insights/cannabis-...) and Increasing potency and price of cannabis in Europe, 2006–16 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.14525). From the abstract of the latter study:

"Resin potency increased from a mean [95% confidence interval (CI)] of 8.14% THC (6.89, 9.49) in 2006 to 17.22 (15.23, 19.25) in 2016. Resin price increased from 8.21 euros/g (7.54, 8.97) to 12.27 (10.62, 14.16). Resin increased in value, from 11.00 mg THC per euro (8.60, 13.62) to 16.39 (13.68, 19.05). Quadratic time trends for resin potency and value indicated minimal change from 2006 to 2011, followed by marked increases from 2011 to 2016. Herbal cannabis potency increased from 5.00% THC (3.91, 6.23) to 10.22 (9.01, 11.47). Herbal price increased from 7.36 euros/g (6.22, 8.53) to 12.22 (10.59, 14.03). The value of herbal cannabis did not change from 12.65 mg of THC per euro (10.18, 15.34) to 12.72 (10.73, 14.73). All price trends persisted after adjusting for inflation.

Conclusions European cannabis resin and herbal cannabis increased in potency and price from 2006 to 2016. Cannabis resin (but not herbal cannabis) increased in the quantity of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol per euro spent. Marked increases in resin potency and value from 2011 to 2016 are consistent with the emergence of new resin production techniques in European and neighbouring drug markets."

Certainly, the potency is much higher than it was in the 1960's and 1970's.

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#158

Post by gsk22 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

oblib wrote: post #92

I have some experience with this. My first wife was diagnosed with schizophrenia after birthing a stillborn baby. This was about 14 month after we had our first child. One of her doctors insisted the cause was marijuana, but she really did smoke much at all. I did most everyday though and one of the first questions he asked was if we used it. I told him I thought it was caused by losing the baby and he insisted that…

> "One of her doctors insisted the cause was marijuana..."

Anecdotally, this seems to be a common viewpoint among doctors. As soon as you admit to using marijuana, in any amount, then suddenly any health issues are caused by marijuana. Asthma? Caused by weed. Trouble focusing? Caused by weed. You vomited? Must be cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome.

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#159

Post by tomrod » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

Ovah wrote: post #110

tremon wrote: post #30

So, more schizophrenic people are self-medicating with marijuana now that it's more readily available?

I'm speaking as a medical student. And I can't speak for what it's like in the US - only Sweden. Here it's not uncommon for schizofrenic patients to self medicate with marijuana. I guess it increases their quality of life until they have just a little too much and end up having a psychosis. That said, at least among Swedish psychiatrists, it's well know that marijuana can trigger schizophrenia in people that are ~16…

By what pathway is the schizophrenia triggered?

And is the trigger causal or catalytic?

Re: Schizophrenia linked to marijuana use disorder is on the rise, study finds

#160

Post by tomrod » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

kbelder wrote: post #86

evgen wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but we are unlikely to find causation without initially noticing a correlation.

Causation correlates with correlation.

Unless there is a mediator

H/t Judea Pearl