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Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

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21–30 of 56 posts

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...expel or kill virtually all the whites, expropriate their property and destroy all the institutions associated with them. You could have written that about Zimbabwe and it would be just as relevant. There are also a lot of people in SA who are trying to go the same route as fast as they can. I fully understand the anger and resentment these people feel towards ethnic Europeans, but revenge never comes without it'…

Yeah, history shows that revolutions which consist killing or expelling all the educated, well-off citizen typically end up having pretty bad results for everybody. Even if you successfully capture their wealth, the future will be poor when there's nobody competent enough left to manage administration, education, farms, industry, infrastructure and so on. And once things go downhill like that, it's not easy to turn t…

It's fairly easy to take the racial pieces out of this and talk about it in abstract.

What you're losing when you kill / expel the wealthy (whomever they are) and expropriate / redistribute property is cultural investment in institutions.

In that people may feel the previous system was unjust, but they nevertheless believed in it. That belief (aka trust) takes generations to build.

Revolutions which violently dislocate institutions don't replace them with alternatives: they start from zero.

This has profound growth consequences when, for example, it takes four+ decades for people to trust the legal system again. Or banking. Or anything.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#22

I don't see how lack of infrastructure isn't caused by the debt they had to pay off. Infrastructure takes extremely long to build up and lasts usually pretty long. Also I find it peculiar how the damage incurred by the Duvalier family was not mentioned directly in the article.

[deleted]

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#23

This is kind of ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that Haiti was born from a successful slave revolt and and one of the first things it did as an independent country was to expel or kill virtually all the whites, expropriate their property and destroy all the institutions associated with them. Both culturally and genetically (95.5% per Wikipedia), Haiti thus has a lot in common with sub-Saharan Africa, anot…

That's the elephant in the room? Ok ...

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#24

I don't see how lack of infrastructure isn't caused by the debt they had to pay off. Infrastructure takes extremely long to build up and lasts usually pretty long. Also I find it peculiar how the damage incurred by the Duvalier family was not mentioned directly in the article.

Also, both Haiti and the DR are frequently (~every 5 years?) hit by hurricanes, with earthquakes and flooding also mixed in.

Consequently, if there's a difference in the rate at which infrastructure is built, it's going to more heavily affect Haiti.

Or, to put it another way: a hurricane knocks out a power line that took Haiti 5 years to get in place, vs DR 3. Haiti loses 10 years of infrastructure (initial + rebuild) while the DR only loses 6. To say nothing of the lost economic activity while replacing.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#25
As an American expat who has lives on Hispaniola for more than a decade, I have a pretty strong opinion on this.

I can’t be sure how much of this is casual and how much is symptomatic, but I I strongly believe that the main driver of the -current outlook- is culture.

Both Haiti and the Dominican Republic are majority slave- descendants.

Spanish were inclusive with their culture, tending to extend it to slaves, and Dominicans largely see themselves as descendants of Spanish colonists. They idolize the Spanish royalty, and fully embrace Spanish culture and language.

In contrast, the French were exclusive. As a result, harían culture is not particularly French, is much less cohesive, and shows deep cracks from the shattering of culture that was the circumstances of most of its early people.

Hatian farming practices tend towards being consumptive and destructive, lacking the benefit of science and long term thinking.

Often, land farmed by Haitian immigrants where I live is utterly barren within 5 years from extensive herbicide and pesticide use, local water sources contaminated and irrigation systems filled with mud from soil erosion.

Land tended by Dominicans, under the advice of agronimos, flourishes alongside, with less chemical intervention.

Clearly this is a matter of education, but also a result of a cultural resistance to education.

I can’t begin to tell you how many times I have tried to caution hatian workers dripping with pesticides that they need to be careful, that those chemicals will harm them, only to be told that “Haitians are immune to pesticides” or that they are not dangerous because they do not feel sick, and the advice is utterly ignored. Same for soil conservation techniques, even though they can clearly see that the technique is working for a farm 50 meters from where they are standing.

Harinas tend to see themselves as descendants of slaves rather than colonists, and deeply distrust any information not from “traditional” sources (ie magic, religion, their parents)

Obviously these sweeping generalizations and are far from universal, but nonetheless there is enough of this that it is hard to imagine a prosperous future for Haiti. The hope I do have comes from the very bright Haitians I have met that are on the complete opposite side of the fence, educated, progressive, and mostly utterly without hope for their country.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#26

This is kind of ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that Haiti was born from a successful slave revolt and and one of the first things it did as an independent country was to expel or kill virtually all the whites, expropriate their property and destroy all the institutions associated with them. Both culturally and genetically (95.5% per Wikipedia), Haiti thus has a lot in common with sub-Saharan Africa, anot…

> This is kind of ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that Haiti was born from a successful slave revolt and and one of the first things it did as an independent country was to expel or kill virtually all the whites, expropriate their property and destroy all the institutions associated with them. Both culturally and genetically (95.5% per Wikipedia), Haiti thus has a lot in common with sub-Saharan Africa,

So they were a society of uneducated ex-slaves with no institutions. That's likely enough to explain the difference by itself?

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#27
post #4

It's a marshmallow test on a national scale. You're a public institution and the taxpayer gives you a marshmallow with the expectation of using it to create some public good. You can eat the whole marshmallow yourself and feel pretty good for a while, but after that you'll have nothing but a heap of dirt (and soon that heap will be washed into the sea). You can take a bite for yourself and get a dysfunctional society…

Wait, who is eating the marshmallow ... and what is the marshmallow in this analogy?

Thanks, HN. Now I'll have Sir Daniel Day-Lewis saying "I eat your marshmallow" in my head all day.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#28
post #20

It's a marshmallow test on a national scale. You're a public institution and the taxpayer gives you a marshmallow with the expectation of using it to create some public good. You can eat the whole marshmallow yourself and feel pretty good for a while, but after that you'll have nothing but a heap of dirt (and soon that heap will be washed into the sea). You can take a bite for yourself and get a dysfunctional society…

> You can just nibble a little on the edge, and you get western society. That would be Singapore. Western societies are really great at consuming unconstrained amount of taxes without efficiently generating returns.

> Western societies are really great at consuming unconstrained amount of taxes without efficiently generating returns.

Your personal observation, scientific fact or last nights night club small talk?

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#29

This is kind of ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that Haiti was born from a successful slave revolt and and one of the first things it did as an independent country was to expel or kill virtually all the whites, expropriate their property and destroy all the institutions associated with them. Both culturally and genetically (95.5% per Wikipedia), Haiti thus has a lot in common with sub-Saharan Africa, anot…

Seconds elephant in the room not mentioned: Haiti was by far the most productive colony in all of the Americas. The French sold territory from Louisiana to the Rocky Mountains just so they could focus their efforts on keeping Haiti.

This is to say that the drop in trade was ENORMOUS because no other nation at the time wanted to consider what a successful slave revolt might mean for them.

Dominican Republic (and I am Dominican) was a largely abandoned island with no real economic attractions. People fled after one pirate raid. And for a hundred or so years it was largely empty.

One minir nit;

You are very right in pointing out the animosity between the former slaves and their enslavers. It is importa however to note that the leader of the revolution, Touissant was actually a bit more compassionate than the average Haitian at the time. Moreover, he was much more interested and capable of management than almost everyone else. Everyone else was uneducated and more importantly deprived of basic culture.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#30
post #13

This is kind of ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that Haiti was born from a successful slave revolt and and one of the first things it did as an independent country was to expel or kill virtually all the whites, expropriate their property and destroy all the institutions associated with them. Both culturally and genetically (95.5% per Wikipedia), Haiti thus has a lot in common with sub-Saharan Africa, anot…

There's another thing that is missing, the article says " Haiti and the D.R. share the same geography " but that is quite wrong, as Haiti was actually the undesirable part of the island, an unexploited part that was opportunistically colonised by France because Spain didn't use it. They don't share the same geography or natural resources at all, most of the settled, economically important places both in Haiti and DR…

The article claims the opposite:

> Haiti [...] is steadily losing arable land. But it still has more arable land than the entire Dominican Republic, despite being only about half as large in terms of territory! So the D.R. actually had — and has — less opportunity to farm.

Seems almost the opposite of your argument, if we substitute "plains that are not salt marshes" for "arable land". I don't know which is true or whether you're actually measuring something substantially different.

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