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Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

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Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#71

Post by fzil »

LegitShady wrote: post #57
Werewolf255 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody is free to have an opinion on Andy Ngo but calling him, with complete credulity, someone who "became noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" without mentioning his vocal and widespread reporting in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example, doesn't make me think the author is being genuine. If the article had a more nuanced view as opposed to pushing a poin…

Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly. Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white…

That's just weird, does being of jewish heritage make you incapable of being a nazi? There's certainly a ton of polish and slavic nazis. What does Andy being a gay Asian man have anything to do with the claims of him being a white supremacist?

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#72

Post by _y5hn »

livinginfear wrote: post #23

Likening modern 'woke' mob outrage on Twitter to Maoist China is the correct analogy. The purpose of being 'cancelled' is not any kind of real social justice. It's the enforcement of an ideological orthodoxy. Never apologise to the mob. Even a superficial understanding of game theory shows you that you have nothing to gain from the self-flagellation involved in a public apology. Remember, You'll never be forgiven. I'…

Where there are witch-trials, there will be those in power who seek to manipulate the mob, for their own personal gains over everyone else's detriment.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#73

Post by _y5hn »

aerosmile wrote: post #54
iamnotwhoiam wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really looks to me like someone disagreed with you and you took it very personally. You jumped to claiming “offense” first. I think you should reread your thread in a few days when you’ve cooled off.

It's always good advice to reread things later. But please know that I would never take anything on the internet personally. I am grateful for the insight that came out of that conversation, and see it as one of the benefits of actively participating on HN.

IMHO people take all the garbage written online too seriously and personal at times. It's mostly all just opinions and random rants. People's opinions do change at times. It's just not very visible to anyone.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#74

Post by _y5hn »

jjmorrison wrote: post #44
gameswithgo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea is great when you are dealing with people who are earnest but misled, for instance Daryl Davis who has had great success getting people to leave the KKK. But many actors are not misled, just actively trying to do harm either for the sake of it, or for personal gain or because they are insane. No amount of love is going to get through to people like that. Think Hitler, Trump, Pol Pot, Putin, Marjorie Green,…

It's really a beautifully simple and true statement. Hate simply cannot fight hate. Maybe some people are not meant to change in this lifetime. But if anything can help them, it's love. I really believe that. There should be consequences to actions if we want to incentive certain behaviors in society. But consequences don't require hate or even anger. Hitler may not have been destined to change. But what Daryl Davis…

Quite funny to see all posts about love being transformational going ignored. What's the better option? Well-thought out arguments? These people will piss on your discourse and rile up the mob against you with their own sins! They lie and cheat, and get away with too - with corruption and threats. They will opt to burn everything down, and they sometimes can, than submit to justice.

We all know the kind of people. Paradoxially these emotional black holes of human beings seek love and recognition.

The silent acceptance from the populace of such behaviour speaks volumes.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#75

Post by _y5hn »

orionblastar wrote: post #68
prawn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A downvote can be to express disagreement - it might be that people think regardless of firing, you should often just ignore the so-called mob. Griping about downvotes will likely attract more.

I use verbal self defense when attacked. Part of my martial arts training.

It must not be Aikido you practice then.

Anyway, people will downvote posts that break the HN guidelines (read the link on bottom).

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#76

Post by _y5hn »

Igelau wrote: post #49
renewiltord wrote: post #20

Apologies are pointless. Some dude will say "He's apologizing because he got caught not because he's sorry" and you can't prove otherwise because that's literally unfalsifiable. Then the mob will just jump on that bit. Don't waste your time.

It's a terrible sort of gaslighting. The amount of times I've been told my in-person apologies are insincere is staggering. I don't know if it's flat affect on my part or a reflex ingrained by TV dramas, but I do know it's largely pointless to apologize. At the end of the day, we're the ones who must live with our own feelings. If I must apologize, I'm going to feel that viscerally, and I'll apologize for my own cons…

It's not about you. But about what each person in the mob projects out into the world.

When enough people would be insincere themselves, no matter what you say, they just can't believe your sincerity.

Mobs are mindless and project, but are lead by individuals in the mob that are either caught up in it or just lack certain insights into themselves. What makes it chaotic and unpredictable is that the leaders change and eat their own all the time.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#77

Post by _y5hn »

spoonjim wrote: post #62
gameswithgo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you stopped and maybe talked to someone you respect about these beliefs? When everyone else thinks you are being an asshole sometimes it is because you are. Ive certainly had to face that at times in my life.

No, as was the entire point of my comment, I cannot talk with anyone I respect about these beliefs. And I do see myself becoming more of an asshole, that is also the entire point of my comment. I think it must have gotten past you.

Do you speak respectfully when you speak to others, and can you respect others while you speak to them?

The problem might be in how you speak, what words and phrasings you choose, rather than the contents of opinions and perspectives.

A study after each conversation, might reveal that each people involved might've had entirely different experiences about the conversation. That would reveal the gap.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#78

Post by neilsense »

Werewolf255 wrote: post #50
LegitShady wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain what Andy Ngo did that nobody should be able to have a different opinion of him without you dismissing him? JK Rowling is a billionaire who doesn’t need much in the way of connections anymore, but she is certainly constantly attacked and abused, and has lost many opportunities for standing up for what she believes in. That you don’t care about it and think that amazon still sells her books doesn’t mean…

Anybody is free to have an opinion on Andy Ngo but calling him, with complete credulity, someone who "became noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" without mentioning his vocal and widespread reporting in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example, doesn't make me think the author is being genuine. If the article had a more nuanced view as opposed to pushing a poin…

And, of course, you have some proof to back this up and prove you're not regurgitating Twitter-mindthink?

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#79

Post by drdeca »

fzil wrote: post #71
LegitShady wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly. Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white…

That's just weird, does being of jewish heritage make you incapable of being a nazi? There's certainly a ton of polish and slavic nazis. What does Andy being a gay Asian man have anything to do with the claims of him being a white supremacist?

Insofar as “Asian” is considered “not white”, it would seem that it would be counter to an asian person’s self interest to advocate for white supremacy.

Of course, whether light-skinned Asians are considered “white” is a question of an arbitrary social convention which differs not only between groups of people, but also the contexts in which the question is considered. (The concept of “white people” is a mistake, which ideally will be made obsolete.)

Also, even if it was clearly against their self interest and they knew it, that wouldn’t strictly speaking logically preclude it.

But, if people expect that advocating for white supremacist stuff is usually motivated by something like self-interest, one generally expects it to be, for the most part, (excepting the rare exceptional individuals who have rather unusual motivations) to be people who would be considered “white”.

(Though, if someone is “white passing”, in the sense that people might initially consider them to be “white” if judging only by appearance, but might change one’s mind if informed of their ancestry, then such a person might have less incentive to avoid white supremacist stuff than someone who very few people would ever consider “white”.)

Does this answer your question?

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#80

Post by alimw »

Barrin92 wrote: post #38
Werewolf255 wrote: post #26

I was done after he actively defended Andy Ngo. I was very much prepared to support this article, but it starts out with comparisons to Maoist China with the most self serving example of that regime's actions, and keep going further. J.K Rowling refuses to let the mob 'get her down'. Should Harvey Weinstein have bravely rallied against 'cancel culture'? If cancel culture is such a thing to be feared, why is Amazon Pr…

It's a very typical kind of piece that starts with a self-evident, humble truism, i.e. "If you don't have anything to apologize for don't, if you do, apologize", and a Hamilton example to kind of obfuscate the tone and then the actual message comes when you bring in Andy Ngo and the 'far-left'. Even the beginning is silly. Bringing up the cultural revolution followed by "obviously I don't intend to compare anything t…

> Bringing up the cultural revolution followed by "obviously I don't intend to compare anything to the cultural revolution". Okay, then what's the point?

He does not say that.

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