The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted? • Hacker News Board

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#81

Post by vmception » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

jsmith45 wrote: post #60

okareaman wrote: post #42

As someone who has struggle with suicidal ideation his entire life, whenever the subject comes up I try to educate people by quoting author David Foster Wallace (who commited suicide) with the best explanation: “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not becaus…

One flaw with the analogy is that a pretty significant portion of suicides (successful or attempts) are impulsive. Many people who attempt it have literally no idea they will when they wake up that morning. A 2001 University of Houston study of survivors of near lethal attempts showed that 70% of them had only decided to do it an hour or less before the attempt, and 24 percent had only spent 5 minutes before the atte…

You are reducing things to statistics at the detriment to a large number of people.

You are responding to a thread of someone not like what you described, who exists in great numbers as well. The two examples you presented are wildly different: Britain's suicide rate dropped 30% and now they are at square zero again how to prevent all those suicides that keep happening!

The point of even talking about it is to show how useless telling someone "hey just call this phone number, because I care about you, well I don't actually know you but I avoid the topic of suicide" is just as useless as the people on the ground telling someone not to jump from a burning building.

Even if they don't jump (or do call the suicide prevention number), the fire is still there (the underlying problem is unresolved and still not reconcilable)

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#82

Post by tpush » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #23

underseacables wrote: post #2

Robert Lowell once said that if humans had access to a button that would kill us instantly and painlessly, we would all press it sooner or later. I think this explains suicide better: For most, it’s an irrational act done in the spur of the moment. What I think is more interesting is when suicide is done as a rational act with planning, and consideration for others.

Suicide is not irrational in of itself. Facing 25-Life? Perfectly rational. Lost all your money and have no retirement? Still very rational. All you friends left you and you are completely alone to fend for yourself? Still rational. America needs to get over itself that life needs to be lived until a natural death. Not everybody wants to further deal with the excessive burdens of life. Suicide, when not done in a spu…

> All you friends left you and you are completely alone to fend for yourself? Still rational.

I don't think suicide is a rational response to that; I even think it's dangerous to frame it as any kind of 'rational' action to take in such a situation.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#83

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #73

s1artibartfast wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree that it is a very tricky subject, especially regarding depression. Having some experience with it myself, I would argue that irrational pessimism is a major feature of depression. For example, people cannot accurately asses actions and activities that would in fact make them happier if they were to follow through. In this way, I think they are clearly distinct from those with terminal illness or chron…

> I agree that people should have the right to choose death, independent of the rationality of their decision I don't think that that there is an ethical imperative to allow people to carry out irrational decisions. I was trying to say that, if someone with depression or another chronic mental illness decides they would rather be dead than alive, then after we determine that decision doesn't come from a passing[1] de…

I think we agree in principle. I think that defining rational vs irrational IS difficult, and therefore choose to draw the line such that it doesn't matter for a persons right to choose.

This addresses the fact that a severely depressed person may not be able to make the same objective assessments of the world that the chronically I'll can.

A severely and chronically depressed person might think "I have no chance at happiness" when in reality, they actually do. If they base their decision on this premise, they would be following faulty logic. My point is that they have a fundamental right to act based on their conclusions, even if they are wrong.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#84

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #80

FinanceAnon wrote: post #66

It's impossible to measure, but I wonder what % of suicides happens because of the culture that we live in. A lot of times when you read about someone commiting suicide it's blamed on that individual or their mental health - but is that really the root issue? How many of the suicides wouldn't happen if society was set up in a different way?

I think you are onto something. An example for me would be, someone committing suicide in the USA due to the perception of having to confront some incredible stressful event in the future; whereas the exact same situation in another country (with different culture) would not yield the same weight to that person. As an example, take Jeffrey Epstein suicide (let's assume thats what happen). He might have sought that ex…

[deleted]

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#85

Post by aeturnum » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #83

aeturnum wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that people should have the right to choose death, independent of the rationality of their decision I don't think that that there is an ethical imperative to allow people to carry out irrational decisions. I was trying to say that, if someone with depression or another chronic mental illness decides they would rather be dead than alive, then after we determine that decision doesn't come from a passing[1] de…

I think we agree in principle. I think that defining rational vs irrational IS difficult, and therefore choose to draw the line such that it doesn't matter for a persons right to choose. This addresses the fact that a severely depressed person may not be able to make the same objective assessments of the world that the chronically I'll can. A severely and chronically depressed person might think "I have no chance at…

> My point is that they have a fundamental right to act based on their conclusions, even if they are wrong.

100% agree!

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#86

Post by dalmo3 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

Jare wrote: post #72

jsmith45 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One flaw with the analogy is that a pretty significant portion of suicides (successful or attempts) are impulsive. Many people who attempt it have literally no idea they will when they wake up that morning. A 2001 University of Houston study of survivors of near lethal attempts showed that 70% of them had only decided to do it an hour or less before the attempt, and 24 percent had only spent 5 minutes before the atte…

> One flaw with the analogy [...] Many people who attempt it have literally no idea they will when they wake up that morning. Can you elaborate? That sounds pretty much like the people in the analogy to me. They jump because the alternative they face right now is more terrifying for some reason. It makes sense that not all methods of suicide fulfill that criteria (being less terrifying than the alternative), even if…

I reacted the same way when I read that part too, but the rest of the comment illustrates it well with the failed attempts data.

To go back to the analogy, it's as if they try to jump from the window, but there's a safety net that blocks them. They're stuck inside and the fire is mysteriously gone.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#87

Post by tialaramex » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

jsmith45 wrote: post #60

okareaman wrote: post #42

As someone who has struggle with suicidal ideation his entire life, whenever the subject comes up I try to educate people by quoting author David Foster Wallace (who commited suicide) with the best explanation: “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not becaus…

One flaw with the analogy is that a pretty significant portion of suicides (successful or attempts) are impulsive. Many people who attempt it have literally no idea they will when they wake up that morning. A 2001 University of Houston study of survivors of near lethal attempts showed that 70% of them had only decided to do it an hour or less before the attempt, and 24 percent had only spent 5 minutes before the atte…

> The British had an issue with people killing themselves with oven fumes, back when the ovens used coal gas which created a lot of carbon monoxide, with this accounting for about 50% of suicide deaths.

This detail is a little wrong or at least confusing. The coal gas (typically called "Town gas") was about 10-20% carbon monoxide, along with hydrogen, and other flammable gases. When set aflame in a ventilated room, the carbon monoxide burns - like the other gases - producing mostly carbon dioxide which is still slightly poisonous but since we breathe huge amounts of it already it's not near the top of your list of problems.

In this era British people (maybe 1000 per year or so) commit suicide by turning on the gas supply to an oven but not lighting it. The phrase "stick my head in the oven" signifies suicide for this reason, the implication is not that you would cook your head, but that you would deliberately breathe the poisonous carbon monoxide and die.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#88

Post by spaetzleesser » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

If there was a simple and dignified way to end my life I think I would have done it multiple times already. My whole life so far has been a struggle with feeling that I am not fitting in, with social anxiety, depression and other stuff. There have also been good times but it seems whenever I start to believe that life is good, something happens, and the happiness is taken away. The older I get the more tired I get and I really don’t feel anymore like fighting to find a place in life where I feel ok.

What’s holding me up mainly is that this would probably freak out family and friends and I don’t want to be a burden to them. I also still have the hope that one day things will get better but that hope is diminishing.

I just watched somebody go through a serious cancer treatment and I am 100% sure that I wouldn’t have gone through the treatment but would have ended it. I don’t want to go through the hell of treatment only to end up back in a life that’s not much fun either.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#89

Post by autoexec » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #34

In "Why do people die by suicide" , Dr Paul Thomlinson goes over the research on predicting suicide.[1] First, he talks about a well supported model called Joiner's Model, based on research which shows that people who are most likely to commit suicide have all three of these factors: - Thwarted belongingness ("I am alone") - Perceived burdensomeness ("I am a burden") - Ability to commit suicide ("I am not afraid to d…

Joiner's Model seems to exclude people who are candidates for assisted suicide. They often don't feel alone, don't feel like a burden, but are terminally ill, in constant pain, feel they've lived long enough, seeing significant mental/physical decline etc. You can shoehorn them into "IS PATH WARM" under hopelessness, trapped, or anger I guess.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#90

Post by spaetzleesser » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #52

underseacables wrote: post #2

Robert Lowell once said that if humans had access to a button that would kill us instantly and painlessly, we would all press it sooner or later. I think this explains suicide better: For most, it’s an irrational act done in the spur of the moment. What I think is more interesting is when suicide is done as a rational act with planning, and consideration for others.

"Robert Lowell once said that if humans had access to a button that would kill us instantly and painlessly, we would all press it sooner or later." They'd push it even sooner if no one they cared about depended on them. A lot of people stay alive simply out of a sense of responsibility towards others.

“They'd push it even sooner if no one they cared about depended on them. A lot of people stay alive simply out of a sense of responsibility towards others.”

That would be me. I don’t want to be a burden to people.